How Do We Know Students Are Actually Learning?
Lindsey (00:02.749)
Hi, welcome back to the authority. I am Lindsay Cannon.
Tasha (00:07.062)
And I'm Natasha Nurse. And today we are continuing our conversation inspired by Lori Cohen and her book, The Science of Lesson Planning.
Lori Lindsay, she challenged us to think about lesson planning as more than just creating activities or completing a template and template. And she she said that it's a process of understanding our students, making intentional decisions, observing what happens. And she talked about adjusting when we needed to adjust. And I I I gotta say, her conversation, it raised a question.
And I think this is a very important question and let me know what you think. How do we actually know students are learning?
Lindsey (00:57.713)
Yeah, I I think you you hit on a really important question. And I think we know that. We know that that needs to be at the core of our decision making in our schools and our classrooms is how do we know if they're learning? And then what are we going to do when we notice they're not quite there yet? I think that we are at a point where we understand that, but then how do we turn that into a reality? So what I really appreciated about Lori is that she's given us a tangible, concrete tool to help do that. And
And I just think that's so valuable. And she mentioned her app. So I want to make sure I say that again in this episode that there's an app that you can get to go along with. So the book really explains the thinking around it, but then the app becomes that concrete tool that you can go back to and even play around with while you're while you're waiting on your book to get there. But yeah, I think nobody doesn't want to care about whether their students are learning or getting it, but we just forget. And I think that that we have so much coming into our classrooms, whether it's curriculums.
Timelines, pacing guides, all of these things that tend to drive the decisions we make. And we've just got to fight for the space and the room to let the children and what they're learning and what they need drive the decisions we're making. And I and I see Lori's book here and the assets that come with that as an opportunity to do that in a more attentional way.
Tasha (02:20.13)
Yeah, yes, I love that. I love it. So, you know, we go back to that question and I think I would love to like start with that question, you know, and really unpack it and consider what it means for teaching, consider what it means for our leaders out there, and even incorporate the growing presence of AI. I I think we okay, so you agree with that. Okay. So, you know, we can look around our classrooms and and Lori had
Lindsey (02:41.711)
Absolutely.
Tasha (02:49.068)
discuss this and you can see students working, you can, you know, but what is engagement, Lindsay, and compliance, you know, they're they're not really evidence of learning. And I feel like we need students to be able to to explain, revise. You something she said that was so that stood out to me. She said a student can get a correct answer, but it doesn't mean they can explain it. And it doesn't mean that they can really show that they're thinking it's visible. Like what are you thinking?
How do you feel about, you know, that?
Lindsey (03:21.021)
Yeah, I think it's so important because we want to get to that heart of them being able to own the learning to such a degree that they can then apply it to a different situation. We we're not preparing students for a world where they can do what's already been done. Like that's not all that is needed for success in our world. And you and I know that. and even the lives that we live, we are having to
take new ground and figure new things out and new tools out. And if that's true for us back from the 1900s, think about how much more true it's going to be for our students. And the world that we're sending them out into requires that they have that ownership so that they can then apply it in a new situation. And so I I agree with you of the importance. And so what do you think maybe stops teachers or what's the best place to to get to that level? Like how can we give some some concrete ideas?
For leaders to take back to their folks.
Tasha (04:17.996)
Well, well, you know, lesson planning, as as Lori brought out in an interview, it's not, it doesn't end once the activity's written. And she had mentioned making sure that evidence is gathered during the lesson and then decide what needs to be done when students don't understand something. You know, we talk about data, data, data, data. What are we really doing with that data? Do we understand the data? Are we using it to drive instruction? And I know sometimes that can feel like a heavy lift.
Because we do so much in the class as it is. But if we don't have a clear plan and or a clear pathway that we can actually not only walk on, but but really look back and see what's working and not working, then guess what? A lot of the things we're doing, you know, is going to go to the side, the roadside. It's it's not going to work. It's going to show in students' work. It's going to show in students' thinking. And then just imagine students getting
all of their work right and not being able to justify it or explain it. I mean it's really scary. It's scary.
Lindsey (05:24.945)
Yeah. I mean, you know, no yes, it I agree with what you're saying. And I I see the magnitude of it and I see the we can spend a lot of time and a lot of effort and then have still very much missed the mark. And so nobody wants to do that. So how do we make sure that we don't miss the mark? And and as you said, data and how do we use that data? one of the things that Lori mentioned was
Having those, it was when she was telling us the three ideas and she said the hinge question. And I think that if I think that's something leaders could just take and teach to your teachers immediately and just ask them, try to use this in one lesson. And so it's a question that once you you get to a certain point in your lesson and then you
Put that question up there. And it's not going to be yes or no. It's not going to be thumbs up, middle or down. Nothing where a kid could fake and just say yes, but something that allows them to truly show you yes, they get it or no, they don't. It could be a multiple choice question. I know you love technology. It could definitely be a survey that you put up there, and then it immediately shows who picked A, B, C, D, so forth and so on. And or even, you know, low tech, because low tech is fun too. It could be a whiteboard. And
That question is designed in such a way that it lets you know immediately what whether they got it, almost got it, or didn't get it at all. And then what do you have planned for them next in light of that information? And so I think that alone, if teachers could just start sprinkling that in their lessons, and and we just I think a lot of times we we make things bigger than they have to be in schools.
And it's like, let me roll out this whole new thing. And I have to teach you an entire new language that you then have to start using. And it doesn't get to the heart of changing our thinking around the craft. And if it doesn't change our thinking, then it's not ultimately going to change their actions. But I think that hinge question could change their thinking. So I know you and I both have experience in classrooms. So how how do you think that could help teachers change their thinking?
Tasha (07:30.756)
I I think I think it can help them in a very positive way. You know, we have lesson plans that we may have used multiple times. And that's what we're used to. And and maybe we've tweaked it. But the way Lori is in her book explaining that we're we need to put the student in the center. And we need to think about, you know, the student's background and and get to know that student, relationship building. You know, when we come in.
You know, our first few weeks of school, we're building relationships. We don't ever stop. That goes right into how we design our lessons. And I think that, you know, it would make lesson planning more meaningful and not just a task. Or like when we're getting ready for observations, we have to write up that lesson plan. And then we hand in that lesson plan and we may sit down with a leader and discuss what's working, what's not, what do you like, what do you don't.
What you don't like. And I think the reality of it is, is it something meaningful? Is it purposeful? And are is the students really in the center? Right? Are we designing lessons where we're working backwards, Lindsay? And that students right there with us every step of the way, figuratively speaking. And, you know, I I just think it's important because it can become like a ritual. It can become something we
I don't want to say a a ritual, but what's the word I'm looking for? just something we're doing again and again and again until it becomes something that's not exciting anymore.
Lindsey (09:07.677)
And it just and we stop stop remembering why we do it. You know, like why do I do it that way? well, that, you know, and I I know we talk about that a lot. Like the most dangerous thing is that's because the way we've always done it. I honestly don't even think that's really the most dangerous when people talk about that, because that means you're having a conversation about it. So if you're having a conversation about something, that's not the most dangerous. The most dangerous to me is the things that we do on autopilot without even thinking about it.
Tasha (09:11.811)
Yes. Yes.
Tasha (09:25.166)
Yeah.
Tasha (09:28.526)
Mm-hmm.
Lindsey (09:36.946)
Because we we're putting zero thought into it and we're just doing it again. And and some of those things might be good. I'm not saying everything we do on autopilot's a bad thing, but if we haven't thought about it in a while, it could probably use a little justification, a little reminder, connecting it. I know leaders always start the year, and I know I've said this in other episodes. Leaders start the year with specific things that they wanted to focus on. And so how could
This lesson planning connect to some of those specific things that you were already trying to work on within your school. And so, you know, if the hinge question would meet that, would solve that problem, then teach your staff that. And one of the things that I do when I'm working with schools and helping them with their coaching, I always like to say to show up with curiosity. And so being able to say to a team, instead of, hey, you need to do a hinge question, I would say.
Hey, I was listening to this podcast and they talked about the hinge question on the podcast. And tell them what it is and say, How do you think that could help us in this school? How do you think that could help us with the goals that we have? Do you think that would work? Think about a lesson you did last week. Was there a moment where if you had added a hinge question in there, you could have you know, done something better? Would it have helped at all? And just truly show up asking.
Honest, open-handed questions, and a lot, and because what that does is it invites your staff in to start thinking at that deeper level without saying, we need to think deeper, we need to have so you make sure that we're building in metacognition and all of the the words that people like to use, which by the way, shout out to Lori, she was a wealth of knowledge. she reminded me.
Tasha (11:16.719)
She was.
Lindsey (11:18.669)
Just in within educational research, she reminded me of when I listened to Adam Grant's podcast and he rattles off all this different studies. She was just rattling off all the people and the studies and the information. And so it's good to have that knowledge and so many leaders do, but I think it's also okay to just enter with an open question and invite people into that reflective process with you and see where it goes.
Tasha (11:23.243)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Tasha (11:43.225)
Yeah. I I appreciate it. You you made me think about psychological safety and Lori brought that up and what it doesn't mean. It doesn't mean making learning comfortable. And sometimes our designing of lessons could be
making thinking comfortable. And it's not that we do it on purpose, but it can be just what we're used to doing. Students still need the challenge. Students need the high expectations. and and safety means that they can struggle, right? We're we're not protecting them against struggle and we want productive struggle. It's okay to make a mistake. It's okay to ask for help without being embarrassed or even dismissed. I I I think designing lessons
keeping that in mind, I I guess at this point I should share Lindsay's frame I mean, Lori's framework. What do you think?
Lindsey (12:36.848)
That's a great idea.
Lindsey (12:43.557)
I think while you're pulling that up, I think you made a really great point about the psychological safety piece. And as a leader, it's important to talk about it with your teachers, but I think it's important to really think about are you creating that same degree of psychological safety for your teachers as well? Because in order to try new things, we have to feel safe.
Tasha (12:48.077)
Mm-hmm.
Lindsey (13:06.705)
to try them. And so is your school a safe place for a teacher to try an activity they've never done before? To try an activity that might not go well? Is it safe to do that? And then is it safe for our students to try something new academically that they've never tried before? And I think if sometimes if we're being honest, it might not feel safe. And then we can't get mad at them for not engaging with us.
Tasha (13:24.687)
Yeah. We talk
We talk about risk taking all the time. If there's no psychological safety, how do you actually take a risk? And what what what does a risk even mean? And I love right here, Lindsay, where she puts the heart and she writes underneath psychological safety, center people and purpose. Are we really writing writing lessons or designing lessons that does that? What do you think?
Lindsey (13:57.832)
Yeah, I know there's a big push right now for learning intentions. I know in in my state that's a really big push. And I think this is getting at the heart of that. And you but you can write a learning intention without it actually getting to that heart and to that centering on people, or you can do it with that, with that intentionality and that depth in place. And so I would just encourage
People to take the time to think about how can I really make sure that these decisions I'm making and the things that I'm doing have the depth that are needed. And asking, how are you tailoring this assignment for the people that you are actually wanting to do the assignment? How are you creating a connection between where they are and where you're wanting them to go? And how are you authentically answering that question of why this should matter to them?
Because I think it's worse to answer the question surface level and it not be real than it would be to not even address it at all. So if you're really gonna take the time to do it, really, really put that depth.
Tasha (14:51.087)
Mm-hmm.
Tasha (15:00.397)
I agree. I agree. you know, she mentioned Lori mentioned sometimes people believe that supporting students means rescuing them. And she reminded us that we can care for students while still requiring them to return to their thinking and try it again. And this design, this lesson framework that Lori has here really teaches us about how purposeful.
And intentional, I love those two words, purposeful and intentional. We have to be as educators in designing our lessons. And and and our leaders, building leading building leaders can clearly use this framework for their teachers. And I'm gonna go to you because you're a systems thinker. How do you think, Lindsay, building leaders can actually use this framework with their teachers?
Lindsey (15:52.444)
yeah. So I I think you could start a lot of places. And I would definitely scaffold this out because not all of your teachers are at the same place, and nor do they need to have the same kinds of conversations around their lesson planning. And I would also take into con to mind the context of your school as well. Are do they have a curriculum? Like I know I've worked in some buildings where I was given a curriculum, a day one, a day two, a day three. And so obviously, if you want me to
Engage with Lori's thinking around a curriculum that is that spelled out. I'm gonna do that differently than the times I've worked in schools where I got to make up my lessons from scratch. And so, in which case, this would have been extremely helpful to have at my disposal. And so, first of all, think about what is true in the context of your school, and then I would scaffold out for my teachers and differentiate who are my young teachers.
Or the ones that are new to the profession that probably don't really know the basics of the flow of a lesson. And how can I have some deep conversations with them around the framework just so that they're having a better understanding of how you pace out and unfold a lesson for students versus my more veteran teachers are the ones that have a lot of experience and I would be looking at how can we go from good to great? And that would be the conversation that I have with them around this. And I would
Would start really small and I would start really curious. I'd be like, hey, I found this chart in the book. What do we think about it? how does this apply to what you're doing? I would ask them about the lesson planning that they already are doing and look for opportunities to say yes and anytime as a when we're coaching, if we can say yes and and I know you asked me system thinking, and none of that sounds system thinking. And so if a listener is you know, asking that, I would say to you, the system comes after.
you start noticing what helps your people to win in your context. And once you start seeing and noticing, this works over here. it works over there too. That's when you then put a system on it and make it part of what you guys do over and over again. But if you're not already talking like this, you don't already have this language in your school, I'd start way back at the beginning with that. so I want you because you're you are
Tasha (18:07.265)
I love that. I love that, Lindsay.
Lindsey (18:12.33)
really good at helping schools think about how AI can help with the lift. And so how do you see that working?
Tasha (18:16.708)
Yeah.
Well, I I've you know, I'm gonna start off like this because this is what I firmly believe AI did not create our problem when it comes to critical thinking or thinking at all. And I believe that it exposed it. And it's you know, if a polished and Lori had mentioned this too, if a polished vinyl product was always our main our main evidence of learning, then AI revealed it. And it revealed how little
That product may tell us about the thinking behind it. So when we're talking about AI, what is our reason, our purpose of using it? We have to have, you know, Lindsay, the same responsibility. we have to have we have to have that same responsibility and apply it to ourselves as educators, as building leaders. And I believe that AI can be used to help us brainstorm. I believe.
AI can be used to help us refine a lesson. And Lori had mentioned that in her book as well. But we can't outsource our professional judgment. And this is where, as human beings, we have to hold on to our own thinking and judgment first. And that means, you know, going back and looking at our lesson design and how we're really designing it, where we're really challenging students in a meaningful way. And once we're doing that well,
then bringing AI in as a learning partner to work right beside our students. But it's that human judgment and that human thinking first that's always gonna win in my book as an educator.
Lindsey (20:01.255)
Yes, no. And one of the things that Lori brought up, because she talked about the hinge question, was one of the the key things that she would do. And the other one was making their learning and thinking visible. And so a lot of times AI is, like you said, it is bypassing that thinking. And that was a problem that we had long before AI. and so it it's just made it maybe a little bit harder now, or maybe it forced our hand at addressing it, which is maybe not really a bad thing, guys. And so
how can you how could a teacher potentially use AI to help make the thinking visible and the learning visible in their class? You got any ideas around that?
Tasha (20:39.661)
Yeah, I I have a lot of ideas. I mean, they could start with holding their own thinking first. If they're designing a lesson, you know, get your thinking down. What what are you looking what what what is your outcome that you're looking for, you know, for your students? And again, Lori's framework is an excellent way to start. you can then turn to AI and then use it as a thinking partner to maybe help you add on or to see, you know, how you could revise your own thinking.
Teachers can use it as a co-planner. there are so many ways now AI is built has standards built in. They're given the teacher standards. There, you could set up your AI as a chat bot, actually, Lindsay, to go back and forth with you. And that AI is asking you questions and you're answering it. And it's pushing your own thinking. So we're not just looking for, hey, I'm putting in my idea and I want you to spit out a lesson.
Lindsey (21:28.241)
Mm-hmm.
Tasha (21:38.104)
I think we have to be more purposeful when we're actually working alongside a chatbot or AI and really getting it to go back and forth with questions. I think the best way to do that is start by asking a question. You know, hey, I'm writing this, but I want to know this. And let the AI respond. And you go back and forth and get a lesson design, I think, that's more meaningful and purposeful for your students.
Lindsey (21:50.685)
Mm-hmm.
Lindsey (22:06.949)
No, I love that. And and I think you're exactly right. I have I've I've seen that being used as well, that there's AI technology that you, as the teacher, you put what you you give it directives on what you want it to push the student to think about, and then they can actually think out loud with that. I also thought about Lori's example of co creating. And I think there could be a co creation within your class where you bring in AI and then you guys get really critical about.
what AI produced or what suggestions it gave you, and to to both make the thinking visible and to help make it relevant for students, which that was her third thing is how are you making the work that you're doing relevant for your students? And so my background is English and I felt like we always I just always thought that we got a really low-hanging fruit with that relevancy piece because we
I always was like, hey, do you want to get really good at winning arguments? Do you want to make sure people understand you and know what you're talking about? Do you want to be the person that can send an email that people actually know what it says? So I I felt like that was always low-hanging fruit for me. So tell me about relevancy from your experience in classrooms or working with schools. How do you build and beef that up?
Tasha (23:21.379)
Yeah, well well you you beef it up. I think modeling is so key. I I think you you you create a space for educators to take small risk. And some may be nervous to use technology, and that's okay. But model what it can do for you. Model part parts of it and and then have, you know, educators try it out. I've seen, you know, educators get so excited when they can get a handle on one.
part of of AI. And that could be creating a lesson that they thought they could never create that had a lot of excitement in it. You know what I mean? They like one of the AIs I love is Notebook LM. And teachers are now creating these dynamic posters. And the AI, you're only as good as your input, what what you put in, you're only as good as your prompt.
So if your prompt's really specific, you're going to get out something really amazing. Now it's not that it there are going to be errors. There are going to be errors, but you have to really be precise in what you're asking it. So I say start small. I say start small. It's professional development, getting teachers exposed to it, getting them to try it out, having them try one part of it or one aspect of it and bring it into their classroom. And that could, you know, again be a lesson that they designed, or it could be.
A project that they want to create, or it could be perhaps, you know, once they get comfortable with it, showing them how to use it with their students. Because I'm going to tell you this much, Lindsay, students are already using it. They're miles ahead and how they're using it. And sometimes it may not be the best way. But how can we fully blame them if we ourselves don't really have a handle?
Lindsey (25:07.069)
Mm-hmm.
Tasha (25:20.193)
if I'm making sense. So I say start small and then roll it out you know, a piece at a time until teachers really get comfortable with it.
Lindsey (25:20.413)
Mm.
Lindsey (25:29.521)
No, I think that's a great idea. I know we were, you know, we were talking a little bit about relevancy and you know, how do you help that helped your students to see that this work is relevant? And so I I do I think that that is a good point that you made with helping teachers to see like you we've got to to be the ones that are helping to guide this or it's gonna get away from us because like you said, the kids are already using it. I think also within your lessons.
Or within that unit, how is this thing that I'm doing, how does it bridge to the next thing, to the next thing so that it works out in the whole unit? Because a lot of times I feel that teachers get bogged down because they think in order to it for it to be relevant to my students, it has to be a the skill that they're gonna use for the rest of their lives. And let's be honest.
Depending on what your that student does for the rest of their life, it may or may not actually be all that relevant for the rest of their life, but it is relevant right now and it's relevant within your unit. And it is okay for that to be that relevancy piece. I want you to get really, really good at this because we're going to be working on this project next week. Or I want you to get you know, I want you to understand this piece so that when we're talking about this larger thing, it's this one piece makes sense to you. So I would encourage leaders to communicate that.
To students as well, so that it's not this fake surface level. You're gonna use this one day. You know, I I know I see the meme, I think about it all the time. The meme that's like, I'd like to go back and show my middle school math teacher who said I wasn't always gonna have a calculator in my pocket, my smartphone, you know? And so, so don't make up these things. And not that, not that I think that yours and my middle school mathroom teachers or middle school math teachers needed to know about smartphones because obviously they couldn't tell the future. But
Tasha (26:56.323)
Yeah.
Tasha (27:03.619)
Yes. Yep.
Lindsey (27:17.947)
I don't think we we don't have to make up this fake relevancy. Just what is the real magnitude and importance in this moment, in this learning, in your skill, and your ability to even overcome your ability to get in an assignment and practice grit. You know, I don't know. I would just encourage us to think smaller with that so that it can be more meaningful.
Tasha (27:38.701)
Mm-hmm. Sad. And and and educators are r really willing to take risk once it's rolled out that way. Start small and then build. And then build from there. Yeah. And yeah. I
Lindsey (27:51.048)
Yeah, I think, I mean, I think that's a good rule of thumb. And so I would encourage you, if you as a leader are thinking about working with a group of teachers, don't roll things out whole school. Think grade level, think grade level content area and work out some of the kinks with just a few people and then leverage those people to help you to do that work with others in the building as well.
Tasha (28:17.135)
Yeah, I I agree.
Lindsey (28:19.569)
And I think you were gonna say something else. I don't wanna cut you off. What were you what were you thinking before?
Tasha (28:22.113)
No, no, you're not no, you're you're not cutting me off. But I I I you know, I feel really strongly about getting ahead and and and educators getting ahead of of AI because it's not going away. And students, you know, they're just trying to figure it out and they're gonna always be, you know, in the mix when it comes to the newest and latest things out there. And we just have to keep working together, not overwhelming our educators, but training them.
Giving them the training, the professional development that they need to be stronger and and to get stronger. Because the tea the students that we're teaching now, they're the students of the future, Lindsay. They're the ones that's going to go out there and change the world one step at a time. And if we, you know, if we don't get ahead of this, you know, it I it scares me that, you know, what what what this could do to our students, right? I was listening to to Adam's Grant's.
Adam Grant a podcast. and Adam Grant was discussing AI and cheating. And you know, he had designed an assessment and students were to take that assessment, but he found out that students had planned to cheat. And I think they were supposed to take it online. And he was upset. And and I could understand that. but I'm I'm I'm in the middle with
Well, what do what what are we doing? Can we look back at like what we're actually doing in terms of our lesson designing? And again, you know, some there's a school of people out there that might feel like this is a moral issue. And fine, that's fair. but can we really look at what we're doing and look how we're designing lessons every step of the way along that path to see if the decisions we're making
include students right at the heart. And I'm not saying that he he he didn't do that, but it's just something that I think we need to talk about, we need to discuss because it's in it's in classrooms and it's at the college level as well.
Lindsey (30:25.629)
Mm-hmm.
Lindsey (30:29.34)
Right.
Lindsey (30:34.125)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and and and I remember that podcast, you and I talked about it before. And so it's important, you know, Adam he teaches college students. And and so we, you know, bringing that into the K-12 experience, I was just speaking with a teacher the other day. Even little things like pacing and making sure that the cognitive load for the students is reasonable, those kinds of things help to cut down on cheating. Because honestly, if you tell me that I have to do
a week's worth of work in a day and a half, and you are you're just asking children to cheat at that point in time it because you the tool is there. And if they think that the goal is the product at the end, if they think the goal is the product at the end and you're putting unfair expectations on them, then why why wouldn't they use a tool that can help them to produce the product at the end quickly?
Tasha (31:11.247)
Mm-hmm.
Lindsey (31:30.447)
And so I I think you're exactly right, really asking ourselves. I was also in a recent conversation just talking about essays in general. You know, essays, essay writing has become the the teaching, but really essay writing used to just be the tool for which students showed their understanding and thinking about the text. And then somewhere along the way, the focus became to teach them how to do that writing more than to teach them how to do the thinking. And
You know, so now that the writing can be done so easily, if the original intent was the thinking, then yeah, I think it's worth it for teachers to just spend some time thinking about how can we go back to the thinking and how could I make sure that my students are thinking about a text and deeply and having analytical ideas around that text and then supporting those with textual evidence and what might the way that I reveal that look.
in my classroom, how might that look in my classroom? And then is it an essay or is it not an essay? Or maybe it is coming up with ideas, throwing it in to create the essay, and then getting really analytical about what came out there because it's all about the thinking. So I I don't know that I have all the answers, but I think it starts with that question of what do they really have to do and how and you which is a question that we started the podcast with, you know?
Tasha (32:57.229)
It I know, it does, but but you you make me think about the excuse me the box without a lid analogy and including students in the process, it doesn't remove mean removing every boundary. What if we included students in co-creating lessons or rubrics? Or if we're focusing on a AI, bringing students in and co-creating what
their learning is going to look like. And I know time is, you know, of essence and that's going to take a lot of planning, but if we're bringing students in to co-create, maybe we'll get more buy-in. And I'm not saying that we have to do that for everything, but maybe start small.
Lindsey (33:39.751)
Yeah.
Lindsey (33:46.054)
Not maybe, absolutely 100% without a shadow of a doubt, start small. Okay, so we've talked about a lot of things. So what are some concrete little things? So we talked about conversations with the hinge questions. If a leader wanted to start having those conversations, you started, you talked about starting small with teachers and AI and exploring how they could use that both with their students and in their planning, not ever taking the human eye out of the equation and their expertise out of it.
and honestly, that I mean, that is my personal opinion about AI. I tell people all the time I definitely use it, and I am not so sure it saves me time. I think it saves me time on some aspects of the work, but when I'm using it with my expertise as the filter, I I sometimes I just think it repackages the the order of the work. and it still takes still takes time because I am wanting to put my expertise over that. But what are some other ideas that we could leave?
Tasha (34:35.799)
It does.
Lindsey (34:45.329)
re our leaders with that they could go and do in their their schools immediately. You got any other ideas?
Tasha (34:50.883)
Yes. yeah, I'm thinking about before tomorrow's lesson. Identify the moment when you most need to know whether students understand. Create one, I challenge you educators out there, create one question that will reveal students thinking and decide in advance, this is an advance, if they understand what happens next. And if they don't, how are you going to adjust it?
Lindsey (35:18.825)
that I mean, and it's so simple. And I would encourage all the leaders the next time that you are teaching your teachers something to do the exact same thing. Where is there a moment when you are teaching teachers? Because guess what? They're people too, and they love a good engaging lesson as well. So, where in the moment would you need to know? I need to test their understanding right now. How can I test it? And then what am I gonna do with the ones that completely understand it? What am I gonna do with the folks that
that are kind of in the middle and might just need a little bit of help. And what am I going to do with those that seem to be completely lost? That differentiation piece. It works with adults just like it works with students. And then when you do it with your teachers, you're modeling for them how to do it with their students as well.
Tasha (36:04.761)
Well, Lindsay, as an educator, I will try it and I'll report back.
Lindsey (36:10.947)
Yeah, so I know that's something that we we often want to say is if you liked any of these ideas or it sparked an idea for you, we want to hear about it. We want to know what you tried and how it worked in your setting. And if you need any help talking through that, both Tasha and I would love the opportunity to help you talk through how to have those conversations, how to bring AI into your schools, and how to most importantly start small and build from success, not overhauling everything.
Tasha (36:41.519)
Well, I have to thank you all for joining us for this con this companion conversation. If you've not heard our full full interview with Lori Cohen, we encourage you to listen and explore the science of lesson planning. Absolutely amazing book and an amazing interview. So, Lindsay, we'll see you next time on The Authority.
Lindsey (37:04.509)
Thanks guys.
Creators and Guests
