Whose Permission Are You Waiting For? with Will Parker
Ross Romano: [00:00:00] Welcome in everybody. You are listening to the Authority Podcast here on the Be Podcast Network. Thanks as always for being with us. Really pleased to have you here to talk about a book that has a lot of great ideas that I think you're going to enjoy. It is certainly written by an author who knows a lot about school leadership.
So all of you out there listening, I think there's a lot here and also there's frankly, is a lot in this book for leaders and professionals in any kind of field, in any phase of your career. If you're at one of those pivot points, those decision points you're looking for growth. There's a lot here to think about.
I think we'll get into a lot of it today. My guest is William Parker. Will is the founder of Principal Matters LLC. He's an educator, author, speaker, and [00:01:00] executive coach. He also is the host of Principal Matters, the School Leaders podcast, more than a million and a half downloads to date. He's been an Oklahoma educator since 1993.
Won a teacher of the year award in 98, Oklahoma, assistant Principal of the year by NASSP in 2012 was the principal of a Title one school and served as executive director of the Oklahoma Association of Secondary School Principals and Oklahoma Middle Level Education Association for six years. His new book is called Whose Permission Are you Waiting for?
Well, welcome to the show.
Will Parker: Ross, you're a legend. So this is such a privilege to be able to sit in the room with you. 'cause when I think back to friends and people I have followed that do so much of the things I love to do you've been doing this a long time, so what a, what an honor to get to sit in the room with you. Thank you for the invite.
Ross Romano: Well, always nice to have a a fellow podcaster here, right? I think you've been through the trenches on this as well and certainly had the success for [00:02:00] it and all that stems from I think. Knowing your audience and delivering them value. Right. So I know you're gonna bring a lot of value to the listeners here.
I'm sure many of them are quite familiar with your show, others that we're gonna introduce to it here today. But most of them may not have read this new book. It's pretty freshly out, I believe. So, let's kinda start with that. This is your fourth book, if I'm not mistaken. What was the genesis for this one?
What, what motivated you to, to build a book around these ideas?
Will Parker: yeah. So as you mentioned a couple of years ago a few years ago I was working for the State Principals Association in Oklahoma, and at the same time still doing the work of podcasting and writing and presenting, and a lot of the same things that those of us that are part-time entrepreneurs do.
That work became my full-time work two years ago. And during that transition, I was still speaking on my former books and doing a lot of what I call leadership academies and some [00:03:00] masterminds, but. The place where I was really finding myself having deep conversations was in executive coaching. And in those settings, Ross, what I found was consistently high achieving leaders.
People that have, they're really at the top of their game. They're doing great things in schools or districts or within organizations, kept circling back to me with many of the same questions or same struggles sometimes those struggles. Were navigating the complexities of hard decisions right in front of them.
Usually decisions between good options. It's not always bad and good. It's usually good and good, or navigating decisions within their own career trajectory of trying to figure out what's next. And so I just began to. Sense some commonalities in those struggles. And I found myself giving a lot of the same feedback to people over and over again.
And then I found themes within that feedback. And then, you know how that light bulb comes out and you're like, wow, when I keep saying [00:04:00] the same thing over and over again, it probably is time for a new book. And so, I sat down and did a long weekend of a writer's retreat and just really tried to think through what are these things, these common conversations I keep happening around coaching.
And that's where I ended up with the 20 chapters the topics that these chapters were built around because I've tried to build this book for leaders that are really facing complex hard decisions, trying to understand the pathways in front of them, but also I'm a storyteller, so I wanted to invite people into a trusting relationship.
That in whatever way it could happen within a book, we could take a walk together and really just kind of think through the practical ways to approach some of the hardest questions that happen within decision making and especially within career transition.
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Ross Romano: Where do you start? Those conversations when
Somebody comes to you with do I choose [00:05:00] A or B? What's next for me? What, like, what's the is there something you center them around or have them really think about first to at least start determining what the options really are?
Right. I mean, I've found many times that there are the suite of options available to somebody who's at one of those points where maybe they think I need to do A or B, or maybe they just have some intangible feeling of I'm not where I'm supposed to be, or you know, I'm not doing what I should be doing.
Right. But first you kind of have to identify what are the potential pathways that we could go here and then get into them.
Will Parker: So I'll give you an example because I'm still having these conversations. Just a couple hours ago I was on a call with a leader who I won't name again, top of her field in terms of career trajectory. Just has done amazing work. Is, I would say, a master at her craft in every category. [00:06:00] And yet in that conversation I always first begin with reflection Ross, because what I wanna know when someone's stepping into a conversation where they want feedback is what's on their mind.
And then I wanna know what's really on their mind. So I actually use a set of reflective questions that I teach in the book that I've borrowed and I'll, everything I borrow I source so people will know where I borrowed this resource from. But Michael Stanier has a book called The Coaching Habit, and I have read that book twice and I have copied those questions down and keep them on my desk.
So if you were to look at my desk, I keep them printed and right beside me all the time because when someone calls, I have them memorized. But I always start with what's on your mind. And they usually will tell me. Followed by what else is on your mind, which is usually when they get to that thing that's really on their mind.
So for instance, in the most recent conversation I had today, it began with the what's on your mind, the work to dos, the things in front, the next part, what's coming on the calendar, all those things. [00:07:00] But then when we got to the, what else is on your mind? Then it began straight into that thing you just said.
What do I do when I'm. We're doing really good work, but I'm struggling with that feeling of fulfillment or I can feel that itch to do the next thing, or I'm trying to navigate that integration between life and work. Or I'm feeling guilty when I just need to take time to recover, you know? And so, which I always follow that up with a third question, which is, what's the real challenge here for you?
And in that real challenge question, then you get to focus on where that person is able to kind of wrap their mind around what that struggle is for them. And then it helps me see as I'm coaching, okay, is this something that they're struggling with because of a schedule or calendar or an over commitment, or is this a pathway where they're standing in front of a crossroads or maybe it's been a while since they've set goals.
And so they've, they're kind of just doing, but they haven't really looked beyond the present. And that always leads me to. The [00:08:00] question, which I think is the center of all the questions I ask, which is, tell me what you really want. If you could have the outcome, you really want it to look like, what would that be?
And then that's when I get to what I call the ask, how can I help you question. So before I ever give any advice, any feedback, I want to get there because then they're inviting me into a potential solution for something that really matters to them. It's not just me spewing advice. And then we always do some reflection at the end, which is, what are you gonna say yes and no to?
And and what's been the most useful reflecting on this as you step away? So, so I think that answers part of your question, which is how do you help someone navigate their own thinking? The other part of that question, I think though is something I talk about in the book as well, which is learning to avoid what I call the binary and learning the power of pathway thinking.
So I'm happy to unpack that as well. But that's a brief introduction of how those conversations go.
Ross Romano: Yeah, totally. That question of what do you want, right, is [00:09:00] it needs to be answered first, but before you can get it. 'cause there's plenty, I mean, there's been numerous occasions where I think once that question has been answered I've discovered with someone, you basically already have this.
Right. And, but if you don't, even if you don't really define it and you know, stake your claim for this is what I want, you don't even know that you already have it or you don't appreciate it. Sometimes it's diving into do you need to change your situation, especially if it's say professional, right?
Do you need to to a new role or a new organization? Do you need to just improve the situation where you are? Do you even want to do that? Right? Like, have you tried to do X, Y, and Z? That might create better conditions where you are, but are you ultimately even interested in that? Even if you were in the best possible version of where you are now?
Is that what you want? Right? [00:10:00] It's like where do we dec let's decide what different paths are. And one of the things that I find important and goes back to the. Question that's at the title of the book, whose permission are you waiting for? Is that ultimately of course that's largely about needing to take ownership, right?
And be the one who's saying like, I need to give myself permission to do these things. And that means like making an affirmative and intentional decision in any direction? Sometimes it could, right? Like in other words it's certainly highly common and every, most everybody has probably felt at some point that they are.
Inhibited or restricted from doing something they really want because of other obligations or relationships some commitment to their family or an organization or whatever. And they the feeling I guess that can turn that [00:11:00] into a lingering negativity or resentment is the feeling that you don't have a choice, you don't have an option, you're stuck doing.
But you really can when you determine like all of the variables and the things that are valuable to you and what matters and what your different options are and what creates you know, an opportunity or a situation that best meets what you most value. You might decide, I'm not going to pursue this thing that I might really be interested in if the circumstances were different, right?
Or in a different situation, but I'm making a specific decision that I'm not doing that because this other thing matters more. Right? That this would be more convenient for me, or it seems exciting or interesting, but there's an, there's a specific reason why I'm not doing that. And now I'm happy with that decision and I own that decision and I don't feel like it was made for me.
So anyway once you [00:12:00] kind of go through that process of really thinking through it, clearly you may end up on a surface level with looking very similar to how things were before, and yet it's totally different because it's the
Will Parker: Intentionality. No. I'm so glad you said that because and I come back to this lesson several times in the book too, which is that if we understand what, and I think I'm saying some of the same things you said here, but if we understand what our core values are, if we understand what those things are that bring us fulfillment, joy, et cetera, if we understand that we have a part to play in shaping.
What our future's gonna look like. And then I don't wanna pretend for a second 'cause I, in writing books like this, sometimes it feels like self-help. And what I'm trying to not do is promise a formula or a prescription or try to sell a fallacy that you completely control your destiny. Instead.
What I believe is that all of us step into variables, like you said, that sometimes are [00:13:00] affected by geography, time of life, family situations, whatever, fill in the blank. And yet within the context of all of those opportunities and constraints becomes what part do I play? And if I feel like I'm only showing up and letting life happen to me and I forget that I play an active part in the potential outcomes that are ahead of me, then I stop participating.
And I'll give you an example. When I was probably. Young forties. I'm 56 now, so this was some time ago. I was at a point in my career where I had finished my master's degree. I had achieved a role as a school administrator. We were raising our kids. So it was a new chapter in our lives. And I was at a church dinner Ross, when there was a guy probably 20 years younger than me getting food in the line.
And he was just celebrating. He had just started a business. They just had their second child. They just paid off some debts. And I was like, oh man, that's so exciting. And I remember, you know how you always do that? I remember when we were your age and we were having our kids [00:14:00] and I was kind of going through this is, doesn't it feel good to achieve some of your dreams?
And he was like, oh, thank you for saying that will 'cause it does. He goes, I'm curious, like, so what are your dreams for the next five or 10 years? And I remember Ross just being stumped because I thought. I've gotta be honest. And I said, to be honest, I'm just trying to survive because right now, this point in my life, I'm doing the things I wanted to do, but I'm pretty much just swimming in all of those things.
But when I walked away from the conversation, though, I was a little haunted by that because I recognized that I had, was achieving the things I had set goals for. But I had stopped asking myself the question, what, how do I wanna shape the next five or 10 years? And so I did some hard thinking and I had the opportunity to do a kind of a weekend away a few weeks later and just really reflect on, okay, what are some of the milestones of experienced, what are some of the challenges that I've faced and overcome?
What are some of the things I can celebrate? What are the lessons I've learned from this? And then let me reflect forward and think about [00:15:00] where do I want to go and what are some of the things I wanna experience. And so I think sometimes wake up moments like that when they hap they don't have to happen to us.
That can happen like that for me. But what I like to invite people to think about, and I'll talk about this in the book too, is how do you create reflective cycles for yourself so that you're consistently visiting those questions? Not always long term, but even just short term, like when is the last time we got to the end of the day and just ask, what did I learn today and what surprised me and what are some things I can do differently tomorrow?
Or how did I move the needle on some of the goals I've set for myself today? And if I didn't, what's one thing I can do to set that goal for tomorrow? Because one of my favorite quotes is from Pete Hall, a great author, a SCD author who says, he said to me in an interview on my show once, and I've never forgotten this will experience is not the best teacher reflecting on experience is the best teacher.
So those reflective cycles are ways that we can consistently be revisiting growth for the [00:16:00] present and for the future, not because. We need to like, obsess or choose discontent as a motivator. But because there's just joy and growth, Ross and and in some ways it's almost like revisiting what it felt like to be a kid when you can give yourself permission to keep dreaming.
But then there's actually practical ways you can do that too, that make make that thinking and planning a lot of fun.
Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah. And I, even though I haven't heard that exact quote before, if you would've read it, I might've guessed that it was Pete that said it, so, right.
Will Parker: like Pete, doesn't it?
Ross Romano: Yeah. That's so good. And you know, and I think that leads us naturally to this question of why to be coached. Right? And I think it certainly relates to what you were saying when you know, had, we're at a certain point in your life and your career and you realized I need to get back to goal setting.
Right? Because I think we all experience that when you go from different phases, you're at one phase and you think, okay, I wanna achieve this by the time I'm this age, or I [00:17:00] wanna get to a certain point in my career before I become a parent, or Right. What, whatever is that and especially when those major milestones, major external milestones become further apart, the longer you go, right?
Your first say 21 to. You know, the 25 years of life, there's a lot of milestones coming quickly. You're going through school, you're graduating, you're getting engaged, married all these things. And then they start to get spaced out. And eventually you have to start to define it for yourself and realize it's a continuous process.
And I, I need to determine and also to recover from success or failure ultimately. Right? You know, sometimes it's, I thought I was going to be here and I didn't get there, and now what? But it happens just as commonly for people who say, well, I [00:18:00] got what I thought I wanted and now what?
Or It's not what I thought it was, or it is, but I still have a lot of years left here. What am I gonna do now? And I do think that connects to this. Coaching question of having that external party, but really pursuing it. Right? And that there's certainly a variance of quality of coaches, but it needs to be driven number one by the person who's being coached.
You need to really want to pursue it. 'cause ultimately the success of it does come down to you. But what, I guess what's required for pursuing that? 'cause I, what I've also found and really attempted to do in my. Coaching is make it available to people who typically wouldn't think it's something that's available to them, right?
This is only for executives or it's only for people in this position or that, and a lot of times it's those people right in the mid-career stage that are at those most [00:19:00] critical junctures that are really like the, where there's the biggest potential for the most significant long-term impact.
If I make the right decision now or I commit to the right path now, right? But it only happens if they do it.
Will Parker: Well, I made the commitment myself to especially when I decided to transition to full-time consulting and the work I do now to hire myself a coach. And and I'll just say publicly because you and I both know him, but I reached out to Danny Bauer and said, Danny, you've been doing this work a long time, and there's things you do that are really strong in terms of systems and especially your ability to build great systems online.
And great customer support. Lots of things that are very I would just say business strengths. That I would love to have someone on the other side of me as I'm stepping into this work because I know my strengths and my, I've always been a teacher and I love teaching and I love coaching. I love content creation.
All that stuff I love to do, [00:20:00] but I would love to have somebody on the other side of me also looking at my other practices. And so the, you know. Ross, I'm not gonna pretend that coaching is magic or that that it's life changing. But what it is it is, it's a reflection that's always different than when you do it alone.
It's just always different from when you're reflecting alone. So, if anyone's listening to this conversation and you're like, huh, would coaching be helpful for me? I would just say, reach out to Ross or reach out to me. I love to give complimentary sessions to people just to give 'em a taste of what coaching's like.
And I do that a lot, especially for listeners of my show who just have a question if we can jump on and I can walk them through a reflective cycle, and then I do formal coaching too. But but you just, you, it needs to be a fit that fits for you. And so, and I think that's different for everybody.
It's almost like people when they talk about their therapist you gotta find that right fit where you feel like the feedback and the I'm getting is worth the value of that kind of commitment. But yeah, I, I don't think I can say I if, unless you have a [00:21:00] built-in system already with someone with whom you can do that consistent reflection.
Coaching is a really great way to have an objective person. And I've shared coaching with a lot of my friends too. Just other people like what you and I do where we'll just jump on regularly and say my turn to ask you reflective questions, your turn to ask me. So it doesn't always have to be formal either.
You can find people that are really good peers who don't mind just intentionally reflecting with you. So there's a lot of ways you can be involved in coaching cycles that are both formal and informal.
Ross Romano: Yeah I never yet anyway, ceased to be amazed at how much can come out in just an initial session, right? I love to do what's called a gap conversation I took from a coach called, named Carolyn Freyer Jones. And essentially what it helps to do is identify the gap between your default trajectory and your ideal life, right?
And it, but [00:22:00] it's going through and going through all the different aspects of life and what's happening now and what would happen in the perfect world. And then you start, and in theory, you could do this on your own, right? You could go through the exercise, but one it just really helps to have a third party to see.
I'm hearing in each of these three areas where you mentioned that you wish things were different, there's a common factor and like, what if we just looked at that one thing? Or ultimately for some people that might be all that's needed.
That one hour, you've identified something and you know what to do about it, and that's all you ever need.
And great for a lot of people, it takes a little more ongoing work accountability, insight right. Than that. But it really, it really the thing that I, the. I think I find it in myself the times when I'm most
have like a sense of like, dissatisfaction with how things are [00:23:00] going. And certainly when I like, feel like frustration with a coaching client is when this, there's no decisions being made. Like it's not always about action. A lot of times, yes it is, right? You need that, but, and it's not about always needing to do something new or not.
And I completely operate by the principal. You reserve the right to change your mind, right? You can make a decision now, and when you have new information or new circumstances, new input, you can make a different decision. But if you're not considering what's happening and deciding, okay. This is what I think, or this is what I'm going to try, or I'm happy with this the way it is, or whatever the case may be.
And kind of building on that. And it's okay. Two weeks ago we're back to having the same conversation we were having because nothing, you didn't really pick a direction here, or you [00:24:00] knew what was the right thing, but you didn't confidently step into it or you just haven't reflected in a while.
And so time starts to move really quickly as you go through life, right? And you realize, you know what, I haven't took, taken the time in a while to really think about what direction things are headed, what I like about it, what I don't like, what I wanna do differently. No, I do want to talk decision making because and let you explain this importance of avoiding the binary.
And I think this may lead to that as well. But yeah I think like such an important thing that, that a coach can help to do is identify like, what are the potential decisions you might make or the potential options that are available, or what are the things that are coming up that need to be, that are worth considering?
And then consider them and and at least address it. Right? And when that's not happening, I find that's when you feel like you're spinning [00:25:00] your wheels, you're not really testing anything, trying anything new learning. Okay. I tried that. Didn't really like it. Okay. Now I know that I can cross that one off.
Will Parker: Well, you're reminding me of a funny story because you're right. In coaching there's always the flip sides. You know, on the one hand, you want someone reflecting with you so that you can begin to identify those areas of growth and take action. Sometimes you may be aware of an area where you need to take an action, but then you decide that didn't work.
I wanna go a different direction. The benefit of coaching. Someone long term, especially if they're engaged and they're action oriented, is just the, I get so much joy watching the transformation happen in people. And I've been working with a good friend, I won't name him here, but I've been coaching a leader for, I think I'm in my fourth year with him now, and I just go back to.
The first year versus now, and just all of the unbelievable growth that he's demonstrated in those four years as an action taker. But the funny story was [00:26:00] when Danny started coaching me one of the first things we talked about was systems. And he asked, and I was talking about just trying to get my mind wrapped around my time management in this new role.
And he said, well, here, I'm gonna give you a practice and I, because you need to be able to identify the things you really wanna do well, and then the hell knows, and whatever the hell knows are, you need to find someone else to train or just stop doing it if you really want to enjoy this work. So he said, take the next before between now and the next time, I want you to log your time and you know, how much time you're devoting to content creation, invoicing, billing conversations, contract work, coaching, training.
And then I just want to kind of do an analysis of your time management. So I started trying to, right, follow my track, my time. And it was so cumbersome that when Danny got back on the call with me, he was like, so how did your time tracking go? And I said, well, I decided after a couple of days, hell no, I'm not doing that.
That's too, that it was too cumbersome and it was draining me. And he just laughed because obviously [00:27:00] a coach doesn't get to prescribe or demand. Or there's, you have no authority when you coach you. You are simply being invited into someone else's thinking to help them decide what they wanna own, what they wanna do next, and where they wanna go.
And then I'll say one other thing on Reflective, 'cause you mentioned one of that I'm, I wrote Down Gap, Carolyn Friar Jones, 'cause I'm gonna look that up. Another really cool reflective tool I love is one that's called the Doing Inventory or the Happiness Box by Sam Horn who wrote a book called Some Days, not A Day in the Week.
And I love this reflection because it just gives you permission to kind of look at four categories of you know, one, what am I doing in my work or life that I want to be doing. Two, what am I not doing that I want to be doing? Three, what am I doing? But but don't want to. And then four, what are some things I'm not doing?
And I'm glad I'm no longer doing them. And even saying that out loud [00:28:00] sounds so confusing. So you almost have to look at them because you, you recognize that what you're analyzing is four things. A positive action or habit that I can celebrate. Two a habit or something I want to achieve that's positive.
Three, a negative habit that I want to eliminate. And four, a negative habit that I already have eliminated. And what you discover when you begin playing with those categories is there's always this tension between the two and the three because you realize that if I'm going to achieve that next thing that I want to do.
That habit or that action or that whatever that goal is, I'm gonna have to trade it out with something I can eliminate in order to get it done. And sometimes that's a big sacrifice. Maybe I have to eliminate sleep for a while to get that done. But it also could be that I'm eliminating something. Like in my case, Ross, I used to do all my own podcast editing and it was in a newsletter weekly.
And I realized like every Tuesday night, man, I'm just always on until I get it all done and I'm staying up late [00:29:00] and. The time that I would usually be taking to write or create something new I'm taking to do all this editing. So about three years ago, that light bulb came on. 'cause I was doing this practice with some people I was coaching and I was like, well, I keep writing down the same thing.
So I trained my old daughter, Emily, to start doing my editing for me, and now she works for me full time. And so now I don't even remember on Tuesday nights that I have a podcast coming out. I just go to bed because that, that I, that's passed off. It's something that she's edited, it's some, she's updated the website, the newsletter pushes all that out for me.
So reflection, if the goal is just reflect to reflect, I mean, I guess that good luck. But my goal in reflection is I wanna somehow look, be able to look back and say, man, I see growth. And that's what I want for other people too.
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Ross Romano: So let's talk about avoiding the binary in decision making.
Will Parker: Thank you for asking that. You know, one of the mindsets that has helped me when I'm coaching a leader who's sitting in front of a hard decision, and this could be career trajectory or maybe [00:30:00] just at work, you're trying to manage people or you're trying to make a really hard decision on personnel, fill in the blank.
And what I, if I default back to my own tendencies, and I think I see this in a lot of people, we almost always think that we have to make a decision between an A and a B.
And one of the things that's really been helpful for me when I'm coaching leaders, and it's been helpful for my own development too, is realizing that there's something liberating that happens when you ask yourself, well, is there a C or is there a D?
Because a lot of times there's more than just one or two options. There's more than just A or a B. There could be an additional option that you never considered, or there could be a hybrid option that you need to consider. And so, to translate that into like, decision making or in my case, career trajectories.
You can take a look at like the pathway that you're on right now, and I would say that's usually pathway A and you could be looking at, okay, what do I want to do next? Well, that could be easily, you could pick a B for something that sounds like a [00:31:00] sensible transition or an option that you would want to consider.
But I encourage leaders especially to try to think about what's a third option that you might throw in there too. And one of the questions I love to ask about that third option is if if you could take fear off the table and money wasn't a consideration, what would you want that. Third thing to be.
And boy, that's when the wheels really start turning when people are thinking about options. And then if you really want to get it make things exciting, create a d option. So just to make it practical, Ross, when I was even back when I was a school principal and I was looking at the trajectory of my career if you had looked at the walls of my office in the summer, when I would start these thinking games that I would do, I would create big post-its on the walls and I would just create potential pathways that I'm looking at as I'm thinking about my future, as I'm thinking about the future of my work, current work, but also where I want to be in five or 10 years.
And so giving yourself permission to think outside the binary then gives you permission to step in what, to what I call pathway thinking. [00:32:00] And this was actually confirmed when I came across a book by bill Vernon and Dave Evans called Designing Your Life. They're Stanford design engineering professors who wrote a book.
Based on an elective course that they created for students at Stanford on how to design their next career choices using the same design engineering lessons that they had learned as students. And they call it odyssey planning, where you give yourself permission to think about pathways like, like the hero Odysseus would in the old ancient Homer poem about the Odyssey.
That there's usually gonna be myriad pathways available for you. And if you give yourself permission to identify, create options within each, search out the pros and cons of each. Find resources and experts within each engage in conversations with people within each of those potential pathways. Then the potential for action is much greater.
And to give you an example from their work and especially with people looking at career options, when you compare that. [00:33:00] Model versus get online and just start looking for openings and throw out your resume to a hundred different places. The outcomes for people that designed pathways and think that direction are, and I don't remember the numbers, but they're significantly greater.
I mean, exponentially greater Ross, for the outcomes that happen for people's futures with that kind of design thinking versus just, I'm just going to do Google searches and just throw things on the wall and see what's may stick. And so, so for me the binary, avoiding the binary thinking leads to the pathway thinking, which leads to this cycle of like I said, being a kid again, the cycle of inquiry and discovery.
Curiosity, inquiry, discovery. And so, it's not rocket science, but it's nice sometimes to. To kind of have a language to describe how to think so that we can get out of our own heads and onto the thing that might be what we wanna do next.
Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah. I think so many of the, these ideas are, even though they [00:34:00] apply anywhere there is a particular importance to hopefully being exposed to some of this thinking in the education profession in particular because I I don't have. Data on this, but I have observation.
Will Parker: You've observed a lot of us in this field for a long time. Ross, what's your observation?
Ross Romano: you know, I think because particularly let's say teachers earlier parts of their career because sometimes I think there's probably like a longer average tenure in a single school or organization than what somebody would have in an entry level position in another field. And also a more of a tendency to over generalize. The entirety of what that profession is like based on that single experience then people would have in other fields.
Right. If I'm in a company and I'm not really [00:35:00] happy there. I don't think like every company is bad. I need to totally change my career necessarily. I mean, if I'm in a, I could be in a certain field where I just think, I just don't like what this is, but but that there's different environmental factors.
Leadership makes a big difference. Right? Situations who you work with that I guess that there's more than the A or B, that there's more than, do I stay in this or do I just leave the field? Do I do something
Will Parker: more than I stay in this or I become a principal, or more than I stay in this or I become, there's we kind of have these boxes of like generalizations and I'm so glad you said that because I've said this in other settings to people when they ask me about this book, which is, I wanted to write this book for the current version of me, but I also wanted to write this book for the 26-year-old version of me because I remember being at those pathways when I was younger and thinking, well, there's only one or two options.
And not realizing that the options are so, there's so much variety [00:36:00] within our fields. And so, you're right Ross, I think, anybody can apply these things to their work and lives. But I think educators especially need to be reminded that the gifts and the skills and the opportunities that you have are way more there's way more variety than we often realize for things that we can use these skills for.
And I'm not trying to encourage anyone to get, and I'm not saying that to encourage people to leave schools or teaching either. I'm just, I was coaching a complimentary coaching with a another educator who had reached out to me a couple of months ago, just finished a master's degree, was looking at becoming an AP and was just wanting to pick my brain.
'cause I'd been an AP for a long time, knew that I coached. And in the process of that reflection, those same reflection questions we talked about earlier when I came to that, what is it that you really want to do? Well, what that person described didn't sound like an ap.
What that person really wanted to do was instructionally coach and really grow teacher's abilities to [00:37:00] do amazing things with kids in classrooms.
That was the heart of this person's work. And so I said, well, if you could create again, a pathway A, B and a C that could lead you towards that outcome, what would those look like? And now this person's thinking way outside the box of an ap. And then that person reached back about two weeks ago and said, they had approached their principal and said, I have this vision for what I really wanna do, and it's not an ap, but I don't know if I can do that here.
Well, they created a new position that met what that person wanted to do based on that pathway thinking. And so, again I'm not saying any of this to say, do this and tomorrow you're gonna have your dream job or whatever. But I'm just trying to bring it full circle Ross, to the fact that there when, and this is why I called the book, whose permission are you waiting for when you give yourself permission?
To actually dream and take action. And that question that the, those words themselves actually came to me because so often when I'm sitting with a leader and they finally get centered and they're finally really [00:38:00] focused and they know what it is that they're clear on, like, this is where I wanna go next, or This is the value I'm gonna stay committed to, or they, the light bulb moment comes on and they can see what they need to do, then sometimes I'd just love to ask that question, well, whose permission are you waiting for now?
And really the only permission they're waiting for is their own. Now, it doesn't mean that they don't still have board objectives and policies and regulations and all those other variables, but a lot of time to just say the thing they want to do doesn't require anyone else's permission. And it also doesn't require me permission to pursue those pathways.
Even if the opportunities aren't like really obvious. For instance, you and I are content creators, and back when I first started this work of writing blogs and trying to create content, I really wanted people to invite me to publish on their magazines or on their blogs or whatever. And sometimes they would, and sometimes they wouldn't.
And I would feel a little discouraged if I wasn't getting traction. And then one day I just woke up. I was like, well, whose permission am I waiting for? If I have something to say, share it with my friends,
Ross Romano: Yeah.[00:39:00]
Will Parker: send it out in an email to put people that I think would value this information, post it on my own website.
And so for 10 years plus now Ross, every single week I've shared something and the only person's permission I needed to do was me. I. And so, and obviously we want to invite others into that, into the cycle of learning with us. But so that, that's really the heart of why I wrote this book.
Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I also do feel that there is something that can also be helpful and even potentially freeing about getting the answer no. Right. Being told you don't have permission or this isn't happening. Like the the example you were giving and like, this person had gone to the principal and said, I had this vision for what I really wanna do, and the principal said, yeah, no, no way. Not gonna happen.
Okay, now I know. If I really have decided that's what I'm interested in now, I need to make another plan. I need to what's really the worst is I don't think I'm going to get the answer I [00:40:00] want, so I'm just not gonna say anything and I'm just gonna sit on this idea and like feel really frustrated that it's never going to happen.
Right? I mean, I hate I realized we always, we need to keep learning about ourselves. And I learned I think for like a really long time, I felt like I really didn't like to be told what to do. And and you know, sometimes, I mean that still can be true but. It's not a blanket rule.
'cause if I trust and believe in the knowledge and insight of the person who's giving a direction I actually don't mind that at all. But I really don't like being told no, I don't like it when I have an idea that I know is a good idea and I'm told you can't do that. Right. But once those terms are defined, then you can do something about it and decide, okay, do I have an alternative way to go about this?
Can I present a new strategy or is this just going to be a situation that to me is not going to work and I need to make a different direction? Right? But if you're just sitting on [00:41:00] things and not really exploring them, you don't really know if you can do it or not. It that really is frustrating.
And so, the permission in the case is like you need to, I. You have to give yourself permission to pursue the things that you believe in. And if you're working with an organization and organizational parameters, you need to go through the proper channels and really advocate for those. And then you need to determine what are the actual allowances and boundaries and permission structures here.
And if it isn't aligned with what I really believe in, then I need to create a different pathway for that. If you're in one of these situations where you're and you know, even you even explained one, even though you were more independent in that situ, it was still like, what was the broader ecosystem?
Right. And I need, there's a different way to do this. I don't need to rely on the people who are. Not necessarily giving me the answer I want right now or creating a [00:42:00] pathway for me. I have to create a new one. But if you never had tried that you may have sat on that idea for a long time, right? Or authoring a book, right?
You can sit on idea for a long time and feel like, I really feel like this would be a good idea, but I don't know if anybody would be interested in publishing it. And that idea can go on for a long time. You know, if you write it and then you find out nobody wants, okay, I can self-publish, I can repurpose it as a podcast.
I, I could do something else with it, but I don't know until I try.
Will Parker: I have a chapter called Will It Fly? And I borrowed that from a term that pat Flynn, who has a great website called Smart Passive Income. He coined that phrase for a book that he wrote. And it's just, it's all about beta testing. It's all about if I have an idea work and I test it, and because testing it will gimme a chance to see if, can it actually work?
Can it get traction? Can I, what feedback will I get? And I don't, maybe Ross, it's because I'm a, because I've become entrepreneurial that I kind of enjoyed risk taking, [00:43:00] but there's just so many examples of people who've accomplished great things that we know about. And what we know about is the accomplishment.
But what we didn't see was all the testing they did to get to that place. And probably my favorite example would be the Wright Brothers, you know. The American creators of the airplane. And I read their book by David McCullough. It's just a, it's an amazing piece of history. But and actually listened to the audio version while flying.
And and you know, they spent years developing and failing. And even after they were able to make their first successful launch and fly, it was five years before people even would acknowledge that they were doing it because it took that long for people to finally buy into what they were doing was physically was possible in the physics at the time.
And so when I think about that it just, I don't know, it's just a good reminder to me that if I want to do something new, extraordinary different. Then why can't I test those things? Why can't I try them out? Or, and if it doesn't work, does that mean that I'm [00:44:00] a, you can't also define your success or failure as your value.
And I think that's an important piece too, to say out loud. So in this book I try to talk about how all of these growth structures and risk taking and testing has to be something that stays connected to the things that we value the most because we're fooling ourselves. If we ever think that the next thing is gonna be what satisfies us, but if we are able to find satisfaction and joy in those.
Deeper, most important parts of our life that matter, whether it's your faith or your family or whatever those meaningful relationships are, the experiences that you're having, then the thing you do compliments those values. And I think sometimes we get those backwards. We think if I can do this thing, I'll feel that way.
But if you're not feeling that way already, then you might just need to revisit first where are you finding your greatest joy? And so I, I had, that's another chapter I have, which is your greatest joy is not what you think it is. So, [00:45:00] IR as we, as you can tell, because we're almost up to an hour now, I could talk about this all night long but, so thank you for the opportunity to just unload as much of as we have.
But and thank you for your wisdom because you're right. These are just practices that aren't just good for work. They're good for life.
Ross Romano: Well, and as I think you've. I think what you were trying to say is that podcasters are the modern right brothers. Because how long were you know, experimenting and trying things out before anybody was really listening or responding to it? Right. And I mean, the key two successful experimentation is taking that input and doing something with it, right?
If they kept just doing the same thing that wasn't working they never would've flown. They, but, okay, we tried this. What do we learn? Okay, let's try something new. Let's try something new. And in any kind it, there is like that permission structure that sometimes we can tend to be hardest on ourselves or perceived that somebody else is hard on us.
But ultimately, when you're clear about your purpose and [00:46:00] your objectives and you are transparent and communicate. You certainly have permission to try and fail as long as you're able to say, okay, this failed, and I think this is why, and next time we're going to try something different. Right. That there's all this fear of, it's like fear of failure that prevents success in so many cases, but even when you're, we're doing something right.
But we don't want to just be like totally honest about this didn't work or why it didn't work, or The results of this were poor. Okay, I know that and now I'm going to try it next time. Right. But it's when we're trying well it kind of worked or that,
Will Parker: Well, and the other thing that's been liberating for me, and maybe this is just a weird quirk in my personality, is I just like to remind myself, but also people I'm coaching that most of the time people aren't thinking about you. We get, so, we get so concerned about what others are gonna think about my risk taking or my decision or my and granted in public settings, especially in leadership, people do judge you [00:47:00] constantly, but most of the time people aren't thinking about you.
They're thinking about themselves. And so there's just something liberating for me to realize that if I'm taking calculated risks that aren't gonna harm people or aren't ethically wrong or aren't violating some kind of regulation or law most of the time I'm gonna be able to recover from the failure and then try something else too, because there's.
Nobody's as hard on me as I am on myself. And and so I, sometimes I think it's just good to kind of get that false assumption outta your head that everybody's watching because they really, they're just mostly thinking about themselves and their kids and their next meal and what they're gonna do this weekend.
And so, it, I don't know, maybe that's just the way I fool myself Ross into just not thinking about other people's criticisms. But but it's a, just a good reminder. It reminds me of the need for both humility, which is, I'm not as important as I thinking I am, but then also an invitation to courage, which is I can do something that's gonna make a difference.
And maybe it's a small way or maybe it's a big way, [00:48:00] but I can control the, that action. And so I'll be humble where I'm not as important as I think I am, but I'll be courageous to try some things to, to make a difference where I think I can.
Ross Romano: Absolutely. So we're getting close to the end here. I think a great, like, something I'd love to end on is about the topic of mentoring and something I mean, I find interesting about it and. I think is worth describing, discussing for listeners is why to do it. But and especially like why to do it no matter your circumstance, like before you think you're ready or right before especially if you're in a position where you absolutely should be sort of.
But also I, I think everybody really does have something to give if they have any measure of life experience right there, there's always somebody who has a little bit less. But I don't feel that I don't think [00:49:00] it's done as frequently as it could be. I think it, it becomes really difficult for people to find mentors when there's not a lot of. I guess intentionality about the offer or people seeking to do it. But yeah, I think it's worth talking about.
Will Parker: Yeah. Well, I would say it's inherently oh, it's, well, lemme say it this way first. When, if you ever doubt that you should be mentoring this is gonna sound judgmental, but I'm just gonna say it straight up. I think it's inherently selfish to hold on to things that have become expertise for you.
Because they become second nature to you. You don't think they're extraordinary any longer. And so, so this is just will holding up the mirror to anybody listening. There are things, if you're a leader, if you've done this work to the points where you're an authority in your field or you're listening to Ross because you resonate with learning from other leaders, that means that you have made like second nature skills, mindsets, actions, habits [00:50:00] that may be actually an extraordinary thing for someone else to learn because it's not second nature to them yet.
And so, so for me, mentoring is an obligation, it's a responsibility and it's a privilege to be able to have someone come alongside you and pick your brain or ask you hard questions or let you walk with them. And so, if you're wondering like, okay, well how can I be a mentor? You make a list right now.
Of 10 people that you know that may be a little bit like maybe somewhere like you, maybe 10 years behind you in your career, maybe five years behind you in your career, but just it won't take you. But a few seconds to think of that many people and write their names down. And then just send them a text that says, I've been thinking about you today.
Hope you're doing okay. Let me know of any way I can support you. And what's gonna happen is they're gonna respond. Most of them will. And even if one or two of them responds, that conversation can continue until you've set up a chance for coffee or lunch [00:51:00] or talked about a zoom you can hop on to. Just find out how are you really doing and what are some ways I can help you with no strings attached.
You are be you are immediately stepping into a mentoring relationship or reaching out to a friend. I've done this a few times this last semester. I knew a leader that had stepped into a new setting turnaround school. He'd been really successful in another place, but he's gonna be brand new at this one.
And I knew this was gonna be a heavy lift year, so I just shot him some messages, Hey, how can I support you? And he said, when can you be here? So I got in my car and I drove there, and we have connected regularly throughout the semester and the year just to touch base and to get feedback and to give him a safe place to reflect.
And he's doing extraordinary work and he could have done it without me, but I have an obligation to reach out to other people and just provide them something of that support too. On the flip side, there's people you may admire and you are like, oh, they would never talk to me. You know, they probably would be.
And Ross, this is the coolest thing [00:52:00] about podcasting ever, is how many great people we get to meet when we just reach out and say, I admire your work. Is there a chance I could just talk to you and interview you for my show? And most people are like eager to do it. But I've also known people that will do that on a Zoom for nothing if it's not being recorded.
Just because people love to share the things they've learned if you ask them to share the things they've learned. And so, man, I've developed so many great relationships with people I admire over the years. Jimmy Casas is one that years ago when he had been doing this work much longer than I had was generous enough to.
Take me to lunch, give me feedback, watch one of my presentations. We've been friends ever since. George Ros was somebody way back, man, years ago that just shared his number with me once at a conference and I called him the first time I was offered a gig outta state and I didn't know what to do. I didn't even know what a speakers, how do you do a speakers agreement all this stuff.
And he just generously coached me and mentored me and we've stayed connected since then. You know, all these people too. And you're that kind of mentor for people, Ross. But those are just some thoughts I would have on why it's so important to, [00:53:00] to be committed to mentoring.
Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah. One absolutely. Everybody has something that they could be sharing. Any anybody who has every, any level of experience is one day ahead of somebody else. And do what you can when you can, right? We all go through different, I went through certain periods where I had more time available, schedule was more flexible, would set up more meetings.
You know, I'm going through a period now where I'm much more, you have less time, but it takes a different form where it's going and doing something in person once a semester versus doing a couple of Zoom calls every week kind of thing. But it's kind of thinking about, okay, what can I do here?
And I always think about it as, I mean, and this is everybody's experience with it, will have been differently. And certainly if others have done this for you. You've, [00:54:00] you definitely better pay it forward. I've had only experience when I was at I want to be for people the thing that I wish that I had, right?
Whether it was very early in my career when I had some negative experiences with just like the way that I felt like hiring was handled in the job market at the time. I said, okay, when I'm in position or I'm hiring, I'm not going to treat people that way. I'm going to make sure that I communicate that I'm willing to provide feedback, all that kind of stuff.
And then you go on and say, look, oh, there were times when I think, okay, things could have really worked out positively for me in this way if I had a leader who was willing to. Invest in me in a different way or to be more of a mentor take more ownership in my group. You know what, when I'm in that position, I would, or okay, when I was coming outta college, I had no idea how to access an alumni network or how to [00:55:00] find a mentor, how to learn, right?
So I wanna make sure and all it's, it goes on and on. But I've certainly, I've mentored people who were same age as me or older or younger, and it's not one directional. I mean, eventually we all are at a point where you don't know the person that that you have you're able to help today, tomorrow, is gonna help you.
And you just don't know. And tell people when when in all those situations, when they. When something that somebody did helped you in some way, tell 'em about it. 'cause you don't know. And sometimes it's just these random connections. Somebody in, I mean, I've had situations where somebody introduced me to another person that I already knew but hadn't talked to in a long time.
Right. And we connected and then they connected me with another person, same thing. But then eventually then they introduced me to another person that I had never met before. And you just, you never know. You just have to help in the way that you can.
Will Parker: Well, and I'll add one other comment, which is some [00:56:00] things, one thing not to do in mentoring, and because I made this mistake early on when I was beginning to help mentor other people. People don't always need advice. A lot of times what they need is just to be listened to and reflected. To be, to have someone reflect with them long enough to just identify the thing that they want feedback on, and then asking permission before you give feedback.
I remember one this was I think the first year I stepped into the position as a state executive director. And so I was visiting a lot of schools, working with a lot of leaders. A young leader had asked me to dinner and so I said yes. And he was in his first year as an ap and I would listen to kind of scenarios and things and I just started like, alright, here's what you should do, blah, blah, blah.
I'm just going. And about halfway through the dinner he just looks at me. He's like, well, do you know anybody that's like, like, has less experience than you? And maybe he's a little closer to my age 'cause I think you may be actually overqualified to help. And what I heard him saying was.
And he wasn't. He said that very politely, but he could have just said, well, you're an advice monster right [00:57:00] now and all you're doing is just telling me things to do and that's not what I need right now. And so that lesson was really helpful for me moving forward to go, okay, how do I step in and help, but in a way that's actually gonna be helpful?
Not because someone wants me to just pour everything I know into them. They may only need one thing in this conversation, and, but I probably should ask them before I give them that thing. How can I help? What's something I might be able to give you feedback on that would be actually helpful here? And then be okay setting on the rest of the things because sometimes just like in good classroom teaching, sometimes students can only handle one concept at a time before they can move on to the next one.
Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah that's a good one. To end on there and it makes total sense. And guess what, like the process of doing it can, you can learn something about yourself. There's things about you can. It makes you feel good about things that the person you're talking to is really impressed by.
How'd you do that? Or, and you're like, oh, [00:58:00] okay. Actually, I guess that's not so bad, right? I wasn't feeling so good about it today, or feeling like I was having the most successful day, and now I realize that this you started this company. How did you do that? Are you, how did you get involved with this organization?
It's all right, well, you know what? It's not necessarily as glamorous as it seems, and yet it is something, right, because you did something, you took action, you took a chance and then you shared. So, well, we'll put the links below to the book, your website, the podcast, everything. But is there anything in particular you'd like to point out to listeners?
Will Parker: well, you can stay connected with me through my website@williamdparker.com and I you may be listening to this conversation and you're thinking, because we've talked a lot today about reflection, and if reflection is something that would be helpful for you, then I know that both Ross and I love to reflect.
So don't hesitate. If you need to reach out, you can find me at my website or my email address is will william d parker.com because sometimes I think [00:59:00] the best gift that we can give someone is just the opportunity to let them to. Just have a safe person on the other side of them to just reflect out loud some things that maybe you're not being able to say to anybody else.
So, Ross, if this book is a helpful resource for anyone I, I certainly would love feedback if anybody picks it up. But even if you don't, you can always find my resources and and all kinds of 10 years of free resources at my website@williamdparker.com. So I'd love to stay connected.
Ross Romano: Excellent. Is even if we did talk about a lot of things here, it sounds like a lot, but there's even more in the book. There's about 16 chapters, I think. There's quite a bit there. So, and it's the kind of thing there's reflections at the end of the chapters. It's certainly something you can go through and in parts and refer to again.
And really whether you're at whichever stage of your career and you're trying to make decisions about what's next or what you wanna pursue or how you wanna determine your next steps, there's something there. So you should check it out. We'll put the link below [01:00:00] to make it easy for you. We'll put the link below to the Principle Matters podcast.
You can check that out as well. Also, if you have not already subscribed to the authority or check out the podcast.network to learn about all of our shows, we really appreciate you being here today and will, I appreciate you being here.
Will Parker: Thank you, Ross.
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