The Authority Podcast — Expert Insights and Fresh Ideas for Education Leaders

Ross Romano: [00:00:00] Welcome in, everybody. You are listening to the Authority Podcast here on the Be Podcast Network. It is always my pleasure to have you with us. And I think this is going to be your pleasure as well. We're joined by two great guests guests who have been on the show before, but today we're going to have a really collaborative discussion here and talk about a lot of things I think you'll find quite interesting.

So if you're listening, my guests, Carol Ann Tomlinson and Katie Novak, you probably have. one or more of their books. If not, you can go get them after you listen to the rest of the episode. Just in case you are forgetting, Carol Ann Tomlinson is the William Clay Parish, Jr. Professor Emeritus. At the University of [00:01:00] Virginia School of Education and Human Development, where she served as Chair of Educational Leadership Foundations and Policy and Co Director of the University's Institutes on Academic Diversity.

She has authored or co authored over 300 books, book chapters, articles, and other educational materials. Katie Novak is an internationally renowned education consultant, a graduate instructor at the University of Pennsylvania's Graduate School of Education, and the best selling author of 14 books on inclusive practices.

Previously, They were on to discuss respectively, Katie's book, UDL Now, the third edition, and Carol's book, So Each May Soar, but today we're having a conversation about differentiated instruction, universal design for learning, what they have in common, what makes them unique, how we can clarify misunderstanding so these practices can be used to maximum benefit of learners, and a lot more that I don't know about yet because we haven't had the conversation yet, but I'm willing to promise it'll be good.

So Katie and Carol, welcome to the show.

Carol Ann Tomlinson: Happy

Ross Romano: to be here. so much [00:02:00] for having us. Katie, I promised before we started that I was going to put you on the spot to begin, and that is because it was really your idea to have this conversation. Last time you were on the show, we talked a little bit about how You know, a lot of people ask you some version of the question, UDL and DI, aren't they pretty much the same thing?

What's the difference? And that's something that, that comes up frequently. So kind of wanted to have you start us off there a little bit with what are some of the questions you get around that? What sort of sparked the idea to have this conversation so we can hopefully clarify and dive in?

Katie Novak: Yes, I am so excited for the conversation. So I do a lot of work focused on building multi tiered systems and implementing universal design for learning. And if I had a dollar for every time someone says, didn't we used to call that differentiated instruction, I would be a billionaire. And so I've [00:03:00] tried throughout my practice to research and clarify what is the difference recognizing from what I perceive to be the differences.

Both of them are absolutely

Ross Romano: necessary

Katie Novak: and they complement each other. And so I'm going to share with you generally what my answer is. And then I welcome,

Ross Romano: you know,

Katie Novak: Dr. Tomlinson, you too. You know, point out and identify

Ross Romano: any misconceptions that I have

Katie Novak: because I'm always learning and growing and both of these frameworks evolve.

But the way that I explain Universal Design for Learning is it's very focused on the proactive design of a lesson that best meets the needs of a really inclusive, Classroom. And so it generally starts off with this concept of firm goals and flexible means. And so a UDL practitioner asks themselves, what really is it that all learners have to know and do?

And then based on the variability and the beautiful differences in a classroom, [00:04:00] what would be the barriers of one size fits all? design. So if I were to ask all students to read the same text in hard copy and then share what they're learning in a five paragraph essay, written in blue or black ink, in an exam book, who would be excluded and why?

And a UDL practitioner starts to recognize barriers. And we don't say a student is a barrier, but we say If learning, for example, about the three branches of government is the goal, you don't only have to read a hard copy of a printed text. There's lots of ways that you could learn that. And there's lots of ways you could share what you're learning because a lot of the social studies standards start with explain.

They don't say explain in writing or explain on a multiple choice test. So UDL is very much the design of that lesson, the blueprint, the architecture of the lesson. But the only way to measure if something is in fact universally [00:05:00] designed as if all learners learn.

Ross Romano: We cannot

Katie Novak: measure universal design in the intention of the designer.

It's was every learner able to learn.

Ross Romano: And

Katie Novak: I realized is despite a designer's best efforts, you get into a classroom, you say to students, Alright everyone! Choose what you need, start working, and then we start saying, we have to be a little bit more responsive to what's happening. Those three students are still struggling, so we have to pull them for a small group.

And those students are done early, I'm gonna have to provide something additional. And from my perception, The lesson is

Ross Romano: the construct that

Katie Novak: universally designed. And then when we are in the space, we have to get to know our learners and be responsive and use data to differentiate instruction. And so I talk about it as being kind of pre planning and proactive, and then being really responsive to the needs of the class in the moment.

But we had an opportunity, Dr. Tomlinson and I, to have [00:06:00] a chat and differentiated instruction is much bigger than just being responsive in a classroom. So I'm so happy to have this conversation and to kind of have a definitive answer of what these two frameworks are and how they work together. (ad here)

Ross Romano: Yeah, I think that, I mean, I'm learning as we go, but that's a great answer to me. But I think, you know, the, the opportunity that provides is within that universal design, right? to fill the instruction piece, right? And as you said, make sure students actually learn what we're meant to learn. So, sort of, you know, if you're asked the question from the other direction are there other things you, that are worth highlighting, Carol, that, that, You know, I, I know that Katie touched on a lot of things, but there might be a couple of pieces to say, well, make sure we clarify this about DI or we're not missing this and, and, and not for the, for the teacher who's trying to do this in practice, right, to say there's [00:07:00] some other components here to, to learn about.

So, yeah both what you said and what she said. Yeah.

Carol Ann Tomlinson: The

Ross Romano: the differentiation I get the

Carol Ann Tomlinson: question

Ross Romano: Katie does. So we'd have two wealthy individuals if that came with me every time that was asked. And I, I think about that a lot. And one thing that. comes to me is who knows

Carol Ann Tomlinson: differentiation

Ross Romano: is?

Who knows what understanding by design is? And by that I

Carol Ann Tomlinson: mean I

Ross Romano: don't know anything and Katie doesn't know anything. But there are so many people

Carol Ann Tomlinson: practice

Ross Romano: differentiation and I say, assume

Carol Ann Tomlinson: the

Ross Romano: same thing would be said with UDL. And I look and I think,

Carol Ann Tomlinson: that's

Ross Romano: an interesting interpretation you've got there.

That, Where did that come from? Or, or I can see kind of where you're going, but oh my goodness, there's a knot in the fabric over here and so I've worked with this for such a

Carol Ann Tomlinson: time

Ross Romano: that I know what I mean by it most of the time, [00:08:00] although I'm continually learning. I'm, I don't think I ever get any closer to the finish line

Carol Ann Tomlinson: But if, if we're

Ross Romano: going to, if we're really going to talk about what are the differences Then I guess what I would say is, where is the stuff

Carol Ann Tomlinson: written that

Ross Romano: is so clear that says this is, you know, this is exactly what has

Carol Ann Tomlinson: happen

Ross Romano: here to be one or the other.

My general theory actually Ross, and I said this to Katie when

Carol Ann Tomlinson: talked before

Ross Romano: I, I don't think it, I'm not real sure it matters much what the differences are. I think both models are trying to accomplish really the same thing,

Carol Ann Tomlinson: and

Ross Romano: it is so very difficult for us to make any kind of

Carol Ann Tomlinson: happen

Ross Romano: in a school that I'm not real sure how advantageous it is to argue over or debate over, you know, small semantic differences or what comes first, second or third in something.

To me, what I say to people is they're There are some differences in the model, and I think

Carol Ann Tomlinson: kind of

Ross Romano: interesting. And I would add here, not necessarily to them, I, I,

Carol Ann Tomlinson: maybe

Ross Romano: they matter in [00:09:00] some places and don't in others or to

Carol Ann Tomlinson: people

Ross Romano: and not in others, but to me, they're

Carol Ann Tomlinson: two

Ross Romano: models with

Carol Ann Tomlinson: the same

Ross Romano: goal, heading in the same direction.

And one of the. Issues that I have when that question comes up is that it often seems that people are posing it as

Carol Ann Tomlinson: competition.

Ross Romano: This is what I've chosen and it's the best and this other thing over here needs to get out of the way. And I really, really become testy when I see a magazine published.

You

Carol Ann Tomlinson: UDL does

Ross Romano: this, differentiation does this. And my instinct almost always is. I'll let somebody else speak to the accuracy of the UDL thing, but the differentiation piece is a hot mess right here right now. And so I keep coming back to that. What is the standard? Where does it come from?

Carol Ann Tomlinson: And

Ross Romano: what's the benefit of the debate?

But having said that one of the things that keeps being interesting to me again is similarities as well as differences. So, When [00:10:00] Katie's talking about the importance of the, lesson design, and that really is sort of the

Carol Ann Tomlinson: step,

Ross Romano: You know, what, where do we, where do we have to go? What barriers might be there?

What can we do

Carol Ann Tomlinson: get

Ross Romano: there? And then let's go in

Carol Ann Tomlinson: classroom

Ross Romano: and see what happens and maybe differentiate instruction. That doesn't bother me in any way. But what we have said with understanding with, I'm sorry, with differentiation is that differentiation is

Carol Ann Tomlinson: teacher's

Ross Romano: proactive response. So exactly the same words to

Carol Ann Tomlinson: students.

Ross Romano: diversity.

And that

Carol Ann Tomlinson: and this

Ross Romano: diagram changes all the time. I don't know if you've seen it, Katie, I'll be glad

Carol Ann Tomlinson: send it

Ross Romano: to you. But that

Carol Ann Tomlinson: what

Ross Romano: that means is that a teacher is going

Carol Ann Tomlinson: try to get to

Ross Romano: really understand who these kids are and proactively

Carol Ann Tomlinson: going

Ross Romano: in every aspect of the work that we do by saying, so who are they?

And what

Carol Ann Tomlinson: we

Ross Romano: do with this piece? So I'm fine with

Carol Ann Tomlinson: start

Ross Romano: with the UDL framework for what a lesson is, and then [00:11:00] differentiate when you get there. I'm also fine with saying when you establish an environment, which is one of the most important early things to do, The

Carol Ann Tomlinson: ought

Ross Romano: to be, given the variety in front of

Carol Ann Tomlinson: what

Ross Romano: can

Carol Ann Tomlinson: proactively

Ross Romano: do to make this environment work better?

And what can I proactively do in tinkering with

Carol Ann Tomlinson: curriculum to

Ross Romano: make that more responsive? And what can I do with my assessment practices to

Carol Ann Tomlinson: to

Ross Romano: do some of the things that UDL talks about as well as differentiation? How can I make sure the kids have clear learning targets that are very clear to them?

How can I give them multiple ways

Carol Ann Tomlinson: express

Ross Romano: what they've learned? But also, how can I be sure that the environment supports that?

Carol Ann Tomlinson: can

Ross Romano: I be sure that the kids feel that they have the opportunity for varied time spans? How can I be sure that they understand the words that are written, that the assignments, the assessments written in, so that or that they can read any words off of a piece of paper.

And what do I do

Carol Ann Tomlinson: that

Ross Romano: kid who knows a whole heck of a lot and

Carol Ann Tomlinson: now

Ross Romano: sat here for three or four weeks trying to [00:12:00] learn this stuff and could do the assessment with his eyes closed and his hands tied and yet I tell him he's wonderful. What's wrong with that scenario? And what do I do when I proactively plan lessons to plan in those differences that we know about

Carol Ann Tomlinson: kids?

What

Ross Romano: do I do before we get into the room

Carol Ann Tomlinson: to

Ross Romano: say, wait a minute. This initial plan I've got is sure better than it was four years ago, but I have these kids

Carol Ann Tomlinson: that

Ross Romano: are a little different, so even before I go into the room, what do I do?

Carol Ann Tomlinson: We

Ross Romano: talk a lot about teacher student partnerships in understanding why a classroom is developed the way a differentiated classroom is.

And we talk about student teacher partnerships in

Carol Ann Tomlinson: running

Ross Romano: that classroom and orchestrating

Carol Ann Tomlinson: and

Ross Romano: making sure everything works for everybody. So it's a I don't see any

any differences that, would make us go, oh my goodness, how did they end up going in such different directions? I just

Carol Ann Tomlinson: think

Ross Romano: that's the case.

Some of the [00:13:00] differences that Katie and I discussed are sort of intellectually interesting to

Carol Ann Tomlinson: but

Ross Romano: I don't know that they're the end of the world in teacher practice in any way. Right. Yeah. And one of the things that came up in our Our previous discussion that is certainly highlighted here is just the continued revisiting and, and reflection and interrogation of how the practices are working over time, how students are changing, how learning environments are changing, what matters, what doesn't, right?

And not, you know, not needing to be precious about terminology when the goal is, you know, For students to learn and to my view, likely a couple of. reasons why some of the conflation or confusion happens. One is, as you both highlighted, similarity, if not, you know, consistency in the why and, [00:14:00] and the purpose of what the goals are of teaching and learning, why we're doing these things, right?

And that the why doesn't Define all of the how, and that whichever route you're going, right, you still have to understand the how to to make sure that students receive the outcomes you want but that it's not that. you know, some of it is semantics, some of it is just, okay, one or the other, like, whichever approach you're taking, do you understand how to do it effectively?

And that there also is probably confusion within the individual buckets, whether it's Somebody who's not totally clear on exactly what is UDL or exactly what is differentiation or, and then it's just all kind of mixing together, but I wanted to start with kind of that why piece and then defining who students are, how we understand their goals, because I think that'll highlight a lot of the consistencies here.

There was this line from [00:15:00] It came, I think it came out of the book. It was certainly in some of the materials around the book, How to Differentiate Instruction in Academically Diverse Classrooms, but I thought this was a good illustration that you could, you could replace differentiate instruction with UDL here and you would have the same thing, which is we differentiate instruction to honor the reality of the students we teach as people, community members, friends, learners.

I added that last part, but that, you know, there's a whole paragraph around this, but it's about. who they are as people, you know, as learners, but also everything else about them. And this is why we're doing it because it's a, you know, teaching is not effective unless it's related to who's learning and how they're going to learn and how we can, you know, ensure they learn.

So I wanted to give each of you maybe an opportunity to talk about to know who [00:16:00] students are. What can an approach look like to determine, okay, if I know that my goal is I need to teach the students that I have, what are some of the practices or techniques you know, what are some of the ways maybe to, to utilize dialogue, you know, student voice, choice, agency, all these things to really get an understanding of, okay, once I really know this, Then I can worry about what strategies I'm using to teach them, right?

But but it all starts with knowing the learners. Katie, I'll let you start with this one as well.

Katie Novak: So I think universal design for learning actually takes a step back because it's not just about the learners you have. It's what are the barriers that you would need to eliminate to bring in learners who are currently excluded. So UDL is often a lens for trying to create a more inclusive classroom.

And right now we have only 60 percent of students in this country [00:17:00] are

Ross Romano: included in LRE 1 when

Katie Novak: have IEPs, which means 80 percent of the day or more. So it's more than here are the students in front of me in this class. But it's also, why aren't all the students here with me in this class? And I think that that is a lens that may or may not be a little bit different.

Because we're starting to think about, what would a

Ross Romano: classroom have to

Katie Novak: like so that every single student could be included? And so it's starting to learn from what are now separate, Programs to think about what would the programming need to look like to be truly inclusive because the classroom cannot be universally designed if students are not universally served.

So I would say that a lot of the work that's done in the classroom to get to know students is very much through the lens of differentiated instruction, which is. This is who I'm serving right now, and what are you interested in, and what are your learning preferences and strengths, [00:18:00] and really asking kids, whether you're doing a cogent dialogue, or surveys, or flexible learning profiles, which is, if this is the non negotiable, if this is what we have to learn, or if this is what we have to be able to do, What are all the potential ways that we could do this and to create this culture of error where kids are trying different things and self reflecting and giving feedback to each other and we're constantly using that data, really rich sources of data, street data, perception data, academic data, to say, is this leading us towards the goals?

If so, let's keep moving in this direction. And if it's not, how do we, I guess, solve that problem through design? So, I think there's going to be a lot of similarities, but one of the lenses of Universal Design is truly working towards, can we get to a place where all students really are included and have what they need?

Because we're not there yet, but we're getting closer all the time.

Ross Romano: Yeah, Carol, from your view, what's [00:19:00] important for teachers to think about when they're beginning to understand who their students are, right? How do I differentiate for them? Well, first, I need to know who they are and what their strengths are and what they need and all of those things. What should teachers think about in that regard?

Carol Ann Tomlinson: Okay, let

Ross Romano: me take a crack at Katie's

Carol Ann Tomlinson: Katie's

Ross Romano: ideas there, and then I'll take a crack at the, what do we do to make this thing happen?

Carol Ann Tomlinson: When I was talking with

Ross Romano: Katie before, I said that It seems to me that the genealogy of UDL and differentiation are slightly different. UDL was born from the notion of what Katie was talking about, inviting kids that have to be kept down the hall somewhere, sometimes even in the basement, into the classroom and saying, everybody belongs in here, there's room at the table for everybody in here.

So because of that, UDL has had, and I

Carol Ann Tomlinson: still

Ross Romano: continues to have, and I think it's a hugely important emphasis, the student who is not included in general ed classrooms, the kid who's walled off somewhere else.[00:20:00]

Carol Ann Tomlinson: Differentiation

Ross Romano: in my iteration, remembering that

Carol Ann Tomlinson: were

Ross Romano: talking about differentiation in China.

5, 10, 000 years ago, you know, and it's talked about really in, in Jewish scriptures, in Muslim scriptures. You can find it everywhere. It was in

Carol Ann Tomlinson: one room

Ross Romano: schoolhouse here. So what I talk about is like

Carol Ann Tomlinson: drop in the

Ross Romano: water compared to all that time. But my experience with it, was in teachings in the beginning, teaching seventh graders. In a hugely diverse

Carol Ann Tomlinson: bimodal school population,

Ross Romano: about 45, 50

Carol Ann Tomlinson: of my kids

Ross Romano: in 7th grade were reading on a 1st or 2nd grade level, and about 50 percent of them were reading on a near college level, and in the middle, we

Carol Ann Tomlinson: have 1 or 2

Ross Romano: students or even nobody, and so the question for us was, how do you have this

Carol Ann Tomlinson: group

Ross Romano: that is so clearly in your face diverse, And create something that's wonderful that they can all participate in

and yet [00:21:00] deal with the needs for each of them to be going in different directions, sometimes just for their own personal growth.

The emphasis on, on special ed and the genealogy of UDL is still evident, and I think it should be evident. I think that's a massively important challenge that we have that we have not. Made huge progress on, made progress, but it's just, there's just such a really long way to go.

Carol Ann Tomlinson: So in

Ross Romano: a way, the, what

Carol Ann Tomlinson: barriers

Ross Romano: are there still has that emphasis of, if we can't remove the barriers that are keeping those kids out, how

Carol Ann Tomlinson: we

Ross Romano: say we're really serving everybody?

Well, differentiation, my brand of it keeps saying differentiation is not

Carol Ann Tomlinson: a

Ross Romano: few kids, it's for everybody. And so if we have a student in here who has trauma history, we have to do some things that are a little bit different than some of the things that

Carol Ann Tomlinson: do

Ross Romano: for

Carol Ann Tomlinson: other

Ross Romano: kids, but if we're doing those background things better, and if we understand how to have

Carol Ann Tomlinson: flexible classroom,

Ross Romano: then when we [00:22:00] invite other students in, or they happen on us, we've got that flexibility in there and you just say, okay, well, this is another change that's coming in this, not the end of the world.

So I think that is one of the differences that I see. But again, I think those

Carol Ann Tomlinson: are hand

Ross Romano: in glove. I wrote a book the last year of the pandemic, I thought, called Everybody's Classroom. And the idea of that one really is what exactly

Carol Ann Tomlinson: Katie

Ross Romano: was saying. What would it take? To create a classroom that really was designed for everybody, so that if you had a student with learning issues, reading issues, writing issues, math issues, hard to sit still, can't pay attention, have a low socioeconomic background that is just oppressive and racial disparities that are so huge for kids to carry around.

What, what do you do with those kids? What would it take in the classroom that is a differentiated classroom for those kids to be able

Carol Ann Tomlinson: come

Ross Romano: and join us and for us not to

Carol Ann Tomlinson: out

Ross Romano: because they got there.

Carol Ann Tomlinson: And

Ross Romano: so in that I [00:23:00] address some of the kinds of exceptionalities that we tend to think of with special education, but also, things like poverty and trauma, and

Carol Ann Tomlinson: culture,

Ross Romano: language. Kids at the high

Carol Ann Tomlinson: end, LBGTQ

Ross Romano: kids that have a very difficult time in many places still, and that's hard to believe in this day and age, but being accepted. And so again, I think she and I are talking about the same things, we just maybe start at different points and with a different emphasis.

Carol Ann Tomlinson: One

Ross Romano: of my teachers used

Carol Ann Tomlinson: to

Ross Romano: Joke with us when we were trying to pronounce some big new word and say you, you just put the emphasis on a different syllable and

Carol Ann Tomlinson: I

Ross Romano: kind

Carol Ann Tomlinson: think that's

Ross Romano: what we're doing for the most part, just putting the emphasis on a different syllable.

But in terms of getting to know kids.

Carol Ann Tomlinson: my

Ross Romano: sense is that the first big step is I want to do that. I need to do that. So I'm going to look out of the window

Carol Ann Tomlinson: they

Ross Romano: get off the buses in the morning and see what I can learn. I'm going to watch them in the cafeteria if I'm in there. I'm going to [00:24:00] spend a few minutes at the beginning of every

Carol Ann Tomlinson: sharing

Ross Romano: stories with the kids and asking

Carol Ann Tomlinson: to

Ross Romano: share theirs.

Carol Ann Tomlinson: I'm going

Ross Romano: to look at the work that they do, not as something to record in a grade book, but something that shows their

Carol Ann Tomlinson: or

Ross Romano: their interests. I'm going to ask them what their interests are. I'm going to do some strength based assessments so I can see what their best features

Carol Ann Tomlinson: because

Ross Romano: I might miss those if I don't otherwise.

I'm going to give them as many choices as I can give them. I'm going to ask them really often in a way that doesn't put them on the spot, what's working

Carol Ann Tomlinson: you

Ross Romano: in here? And why is it working? And what's not working for you in here? And why is it that way? And if we're trying to make this

Carol Ann Tomlinson: classroom

Ross Romano: that really works for everybody, what do we need to do?

What's our next step to make it better than it is today? I think the intent to know students is, What gets you there? I mean, think about yourself on a plane, or

Carol Ann Tomlinson: a

Ross Romano: bus, or a train. For me, unfortunately, because I'm a hermit, an introvert of the worst variety, and I think

Carol Ann Tomlinson: Katie's an [00:25:00] extrovert

Ross Romano: of the highest variety.

My thing on a plane usually is, I'm not here, please don't look at me, please don't say anything to me. And I get off that plane not knowing anybody. But if I am sitting next to somebody and we get into a conversation I pretty quickly get deeply into it and I'm finding out fascinating things and making connections because I meant to do it.

And I think there's a huge

Carol Ann Tomlinson: on

Ross Romano: that. I had every time I'm working with high school teachers, people say that you don't understand. This is just not feasible. I have 130 kids and I really, that's just not doable. And I try for us to talk about it a little bit before I talk about

Carol Ann Tomlinson: fact

Ross Romano: that in my. Early teaching 150 was the smallest enrollment I ever had, and it went up from there. And then

Carol Ann Tomlinson: tell

Ross Romano: him a story of a teacher that wrote me from China, telling me the thing she was doing to differentiate for her students. And I was picking up ideas from her all over the place.

Carol Ann Tomlinson: then

Ross Romano: she said,

Carol Ann Tomlinson: reason

Ross Romano: I really

Carol Ann Tomlinson: wrote

Ross Romano: you were Is I'm wondering if

Carol Ann Tomlinson: have

Ross Romano: any further advice to give a teacher who has 90 students in every class. And, [00:26:00] you know, she's working at it and she's getting somewhere because she sees a need and she wants to and I think that's it. But there's so many ways you can stop by a desk and kneel down

Carol Ann Tomlinson: talk

Ross Romano: to a kid. So a teacher in Chicago, the high school teacher that does this wonderful thing anytime he gives the kids a test.

Task that's on a piece of printed paper that he gave them, and sometimes even if it's notebook paper, he has a prompt at the top of it that he asked the kids to fill in, and it's something like what's your favorite kind of pizza, or tell me a good movie that you've seen recently that you think

Carol Ann Tomlinson: ought to like,

Ross Romano: or one that he wrote on there that I thought was really great and worked really well was, suggest a book to me that I

Carol Ann Tomlinson: read

Ross Romano: to my second grader, and all the kids shared, you know, the second grade stuff, One day he said, what would you rather

Carol Ann Tomlinson: doing

Ross Romano: than being in this class right now?

I think that's a gutsy question to ask and he learned some things, but the kids would tell you that he's The best teacher they have. And it's because he cares to know them, and because he cares to know them, he [00:27:00] gets to know them. So there are many strategies, you know, that you can use to do that. But just that desire is the, on the, on the train.

I don't wanna talk to anybody. I'm not gonna do it. I can't do it. I don't wanna do it, and it's not gonna happen. And I really wanna meet these people and figure 'em out. And so many ways you can do that. Yeah. So in the, in the spirit of understanding that there's. I think a lot of skill and nuance in, in the process of teaching and learning, right?

And there's, so there can be discussions and debates about differentiation is and is not what UDL is and is not, but within it, there's also prioritization and, and, you know, attentiveness to purpose, right? There's plenty of, practices or goals that are a relevant part of instruction but that may [00:28:00] tend to be over or under emphasized, right?

That, yes, this is something we can do, but it's not the thing to pay the most attention to. I'm wondering Carol, if there's anything that comes to mind when you're working with educators and, you know, on differentiation, or as you might call it, teaching, right? That, you know, There just tends to be either, you know, and, or, kind of an, an over emphasis on, like, this is something, but it's not the most important thing or, or vice versa, that there's something that we should pay more attention to that tends to get deprioritized.

Carol Ann Tomlinson: One of the things

Ross Romano: that's sort of hard for me to deal with, because it is hard to deal with,

Carol Ann Tomlinson: just

Ross Romano: out there and

Carol Ann Tomlinson: hard to fight, but the

Ross Romano: differentiation is a set of instructional strategies. I don't think anybody says, you know, it has to be these six strategies, but but it's just about the instructional piece.

And while the instruction piece, of course, really [00:29:00] matters, because that's the point at which the learning is really supposed to happen If you see it as, oh, well, I can't create a different assignment for kids every day.

Carol Ann Tomlinson: There's

Ross Romano: a lot of, I can't create an assign different assignments

Carol Ann Tomlinson: every

Ross Romano: kid in the classroom.

And nobody's ever said they shouldn't. It makes no sense. And you can't do it. But if you get past that, the it's all about instructional strategies. And for me, the instructional strategies matter, but they begin to become

Carol Ann Tomlinson: easier

Ross Romano: to manage as you begin to manage

Carol Ann Tomlinson: flexibly and to

Ross Romano: manage the way you present things to kids flexibly.

And as you get kids to work in flexible groups with one another, and those become strategies themselves. And, so for me, that's a, that's one of the things that is a limitation of people's understandings. One of the areas that I think I must just have some genetic deficiencies, but I can't keep myself from pushing on, is the practices that we have

Carol Ann Tomlinson: public school

Ross Romano: that are just downright [00:30:00] ineffective, and they don't come from our

Carol Ann Tomlinson: knowledge of

Ross Romano: the field.

They don't come

Carol Ann Tomlinson: any

Ross Romano: kind of research. So one of the biggest barriers to me is I have a curriculum and I have to cover it and I have to cover it by this date and talk about barriers for kids. By the time that happens, you violated one of the most important principles of differentiation. And I think UDL as well.

And this is, it's not about you and what you have to do. It's not about

Carol Ann Tomlinson: you

Ross Romano: call a curriculum that you have to cover. And by the way, Brains don't learn that way, and brains

Carol Ann Tomlinson: have

Ross Romano: extra challenges really don't learn that way, and even

Carol Ann Tomlinson: ones

Ross Romano: that can hate it when they have to learn that way.

So we really need to look

Carol Ann Tomlinson: some

Ross Romano: of those big

Carol Ann Tomlinson: things.

Ross Romano: And understand, for example, that, that curriculum is that standards are an ingredient for dinner. They aren't dinner,

Carol Ann Tomlinson: But

Ross Romano: we use them as though they're dinner, and that's what kids are supposed to consume. So I spend

Carol Ann Tomlinson: a

Ross Romano: a

Carol Ann Tomlinson: chunk of

Ross Romano: time, because

Carol Ann Tomlinson: somehow

Ross Romano: weirdly compelled [00:31:00] to, looking at some of those things that I think are, are real barriers, as Katie would say,

Carol Ann Tomlinson: think

Ross Romano: barriers to excellent learning opportunities for all kids.

Just the things that Forget differentiation, forget UDL, but it's just stuff that we do, I guess, because we've done it

Carol Ann Tomlinson: a

Ross Romano: thousand years. And really, mostly, that's

Carol Ann Tomlinson: quite fair. We

Ross Romano: do it because we're afraid of the change and we don't know how to make the change happen. And

Carol Ann Tomlinson: we

Ross Romano: hang on with

Carol Ann Tomlinson: teeth

Ross Romano: to the way we've always done things.

Yeah. Katie, any, anything from your experience and your perspective that it's, you know, over, under prioritized?

Katie Novak: So I think with universal design for learning, one way that it's often characterized is voice and choice. So how do we design a learning environment that

Ross Romano: optimizes

Katie Novak: student voice and student choice? However, the choice part is often very overemphasized because it's not so much about

Ross Romano: kids

Katie Novak: do whatever they [00:32:00] want whenever they want in its romper room, but it's all about really construct relevant choices and it comes down to what really is it that all learners have to know or what to all learners have to be able to do.

And then what are the potential pathways that they will need to do that so I see a lot of quote on like choice boards. And I'm like, but what's the purpose of this time? Like all these kids have all these choices and that's amazing. But like, what, what subject are we in? What are we working towards? Right.

And so let's say that it is something like students are learning about how to produce argument writing. And certainly they can choose the prompt and certainly they can choose what they're going to do in each component of the writing process. What does pre writing look like? Is it brainstorming? Is it collaborating?

Is it researching? What does drafting, you know, look like or planning? Is it graphic organizers? Is it an outline? Is it working together? Is it working alone, right? And we can personalize all these things, but [00:33:00] ultimately we want students to know how to leverage tools to produce writing. And sometimes I'll see choice boards and, well, that student doesn't like to write, so they're just going to tell me.

I'm like,

Ross Romano: but, but one of the goals is

Katie Novak: that they learn how to produce writing and certainly they can leverage voice typing. We can go through lots of different

Ross Romano: iterations of peer review.

Katie Novak: Writing could be in a comic series or a blog, right? But I think that sometimes we're just so focused on the choice that we lose sight of what really is it that we're working toward.

What is the goal for all students? And that

Ross Romano: makes it.

Katie Novak: Less work for teachers. So I love food analogies as well. And you know, I always talk about UDL is not a casserole. It is a buffet. So if I want everyone to come over and eat dinner, then my goal is dinner. I don't have to worry about every type of food that you could eat for breakfast or for, you know, a snack.

It's like, okay, if my goal is dinner. What are the predictable barriers? Some people don't eat meat.

Ross Romano: Some

Katie Novak: are vegetarians. [00:34:00] I'm just going to put out some options so everyone can have dinner. I'm going to put out some options so everyone can learn more about photosynthesis. I'm going to provide options so students can share their writing.

But I think that what is often

Ross Romano: over emphasized is

Katie Novak: the flexible means without first thinking of the purpose and the goals that we have for kids. So that can get in the way sometimes because I'll walk into classrooms and I'll say, It's incredibly

Ross Romano: flexible.

Katie Novak: but it, there's a real opportunity gap here because students aren't working towards what would be considered rigorous for their grade level.

It's not authentic, it's not meaningful, so you have to balance all of those things with the flexibility.

Ross Romano: So, this is by nature going to have to be an incomplete definition, but I think it's worth touching on. You know, many of our listeners, probably most of them, are, you know, In school leadership roles.

And so as they're hearing all of this and kind of hopefully getting some, some great [00:35:00] ideas out of this conversation, there might be the, the question of like, What is my role in all this? What, what, what should I do if I want to foster a culture of instructional efficacy, you know, collective efficacy, et cetera, around teaching and learning in some of the ways we're describing in brief, I guess, like, what, what do you see as the, the role that school leadership should be playing in that and, or, you know, the, the pieces that they should be leaving, you know, Teachers that have autonomy over, but yeah, I mean, you define it, but Carol, I'll have you start with that

Carol Ann Tomlinson: again.

Ross Romano: I think 1 of

Carol Ann Tomlinson: things

Ross Romano: that matters most is go back to Katie's why I think we have a pretty clear sense that change happens better when a leader has a vision for what's going to happen and is. [00:36:00] smitten with it to the degree that they can't honestly go home

Carol Ann Tomlinson: night and think

Ross Romano: we're not paying attention to this adequately.

This, this is the big challenge for our time. This is the big challenge for our century. And to create that vision in such a way that they can share it compellingly with faculty, but also invite faculty to have input to it and to own it and to work forward. But it needs not to be we're going to do UDL or differentiation this year because some entity is going to come assess us and we have to do it, or

Carol Ann Tomlinson: we

Ross Romano: haven't done that yet.

Where I'd get rich, Katie, is if, if I had

Carol Ann Tomlinson: even a

Ross Romano: dime

Carol Ann Tomlinson: every

Ross Romano: time somebody has said

Carol Ann Tomlinson: me,

Ross Romano: oh yeah, differentiation, we did that last year. Both of these things are a lifetime pursuit. And so I think to have that vision and then I think a second thing there is to Choose leaders from around

Carol Ann Tomlinson: the

Ross Romano: school that can talk with you

Carol Ann Tomlinson: and.

Ross Romano: think about that vision and where it might go and how it might work.

So you can do some [00:37:00] distributed leadership

Carol Ann Tomlinson: you're

Ross Romano: not the only person

Carol Ann Tomlinson: trying

Ross Romano: to

Carol Ann Tomlinson: this

Ross Romano: happen, but. You have counselors and you have department chairs or grade level leaders and you have English language

Carol Ann Tomlinson: teachers,

Ross Romano: and you have teachers who work

Carol Ann Tomlinson: special ed, you have

Ross Romano: sociologists, whoever's in the building that

Carol Ann Tomlinson: has

Ross Romano: an investment in this and an interest in it.

So that you have some people who can plan with you. And it seems to me like going down that road then to talk about kind of what Katie was here. There need to be some choices so that a teacher, so that we can actually say to a teacher, here's what we're talking about and here's what

Carol Ann Tomlinson: it

Ross Romano: looks like.

Here's a framework for it. And here's how we're going to help you learn about it because we don't, any of us have enough knowledge now. And so we're going to learn together.

Carol Ann Tomlinson: But

Ross Romano: as you go down that road to be able to say, there's some things that I think as a school, all of us need to work on this year.

But I also want every

Carol Ann Tomlinson: to take

Ross Romano: something that's a part of this puzzle that [00:38:00] they're passionate about and work on that as well. So they have both the thing that's going to help move

Carol Ann Tomlinson: school

Ross Romano: forward and the thing that's going to help them move forward. And I think one of the things that is. Most useful to me to think about in working with leaders is we talk about in differentiation how important the learning environment is and what a compelling what John Hattie would call an invitational learning environment looks like and what.

Compelling curriculum looks like, engaging,

Carol Ann Tomlinson: on understanding

Ross Romano: what kinds of formative assessment we

Carol Ann Tomlinson: use

Ross Romano: with kids, and the importance of having formative assessment until people

Carol Ann Tomlinson: really

Ross Romano: ready for something that's more

Carol Ann Tomlinson: Talk

Ross Romano: about the variety and the ways people learn. We talk about how you get teacher kids to work with you to manage all of this.

What I talk about with leaders a lot is you need to model for your teachers. Every one of those things. If you want a learning environment in the classroom

Carol Ann Tomlinson: look

Ross Romano: like [00:39:00] this, how are they going to see that happening for them? If they're going, if

Carol Ann Tomlinson: talking

Ross Romano: about curriculum

Carol Ann Tomlinson: compelling,

Ross Romano: what are you going to do to make professional

Carol Ann Tomlinson: compelling and focused

Ross Romano: on these outcomes?

Not everybody chooses what they want, again. So, modeling that kind of thing, and doing exactly what you would

Carol Ann Tomlinson: in a

Ross Romano: a UDL classroom, or a differentiated one, which is, what I'm assessing all the time. I'm trying to get to know these people all the time. I have

Carol Ann Tomlinson: understand

Ross Romano: where they are, what their next steps are, how we

Carol Ann Tomlinson: help

Ross Romano: them get there when they're frustrated.

I have to have to help them get over the frustration. So it's a big plan, but it is in the schools where I have seen that happen. It's revolutionary for pretty much everybody that's in the plan, although again, never finished. But I think starting with why and moving from there. So what's it going to look like?

And how we, how can we get to it? What steps are we going to follow? And what's our plan for this year? And by the way, what's our plan for

Carol Ann Tomlinson: years from

Ross Romano: now? So folks know it's not, we did differentiation last year [00:40:00] and we just quit. Those are a few things. Excellent. Katie, do you have anything in particular for school leaders?

Katie Novak: I mean, I was going to go heavy on the modeling, but I'll add that UDL, Differentiated Instruction, those are not your

Ross Romano: goals. Your goals

Katie Novak: are increased student outcomes. And so I think sometimes when I come out and work in a district, it's like, Oh, we're, our goal is UDL. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Like that's a change idea.

That's a framework to help you increase the outcomes of all learners, whether that's

Ross Romano: is their academic outcomes,

Katie Novak: emotional outcomes, their sense of belonging, their confidence as learners, but I think sometimes we look strategically at a plan and we say our goal is UDL, our goal is culturally responsive pedagogy, our goal is trauma informed instruction, and the goal really is, is that we want all students to learn at high levels, and experience a classroom where they are challenged, where they are supported, where they feel like they belong.

And we can pull [00:41:00] lots of different sources of data

Ross Romano: to determine

Katie Novak: how far away we are from that vision of all students having these outcomes. And ultimately, we're leveraging frameworks like Universal Design for Learning and Differentiated Instruction to get us closer and closer to that point, which is, again, the need for constant assessment, not of annual standardized test data, that's the least important of the data family, but really to be looking at what is the experience like for children and their families and the community, and if we have this vision that we're all working towards, Are we living that vision in, through our improvement plan?

So, I think that sometimes people get so stuck on UDL for the sake of UDL, or DI for the sake of DI. And it's UDL for the sake of

Ross Romano: way better

Katie Novak: outcomes for these brilliant kids who we're serving and the frameworks because there is a long history which each of them can provide us with some concrete strategies

Ross Romano: With [00:42:00] some,

Katie Novak: you know, impact studies and effect sizes that give us this demonstration of impact of

Ross Romano: things that we can do, but the reason that we're doing it is because we're not

Katie Novak: at a place yet where all kids have equitable opportunities to learn at high levels and live the lives that they want to

Ross Romano: live.

Yeah, yeah, Katie. You have a podcast now, so I'm going to put you on the spot again. What question would you ask? Carol?

What question would I ask to Carol? Yeah, I'm going to take a break. I'm getting paid. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. I love

Katie Novak: this.

Ross Romano: Okay. No, I love this.

Katie Novak: You know, what I would say, Carol, is if somebody, I know that people ask me this all the time. They always say, what can I do tomorrow? Right. Teachers are overwhelmed. Leaders are overwhelmed. Okay. So you're talking about this framework that is synonymous with We have to do all this teaching thing better, but what can I do tomorrow to grow in my [00:43:00] practice if I want to approach planning through this kind of lens of differentiated instruction?

Carol Ann Tomlinson: but one

Ross Romano: of the things that I think is really important, and this

Carol Ann Tomlinson: true with

Ross Romano: kids, kids come into our class and we say, you're going to learn algebra this year.

And they go, I can never learn algebra in a year. And sometimes they don't.

Carol Ann Tomlinson: sometimes

Ross Romano: it's the world

Carol Ann Tomlinson: us, and sometimes we're against ourselves, but

Ross Romano: we don't ask them to learn algebra

Carol Ann Tomlinson: first

Ross Romano: day. We ask them to take a step

Carol Ann Tomlinson: keep

Ross Romano: moving and understand the concepts until they become larger.

So I think

Carol Ann Tomlinson: it's

Ross Romano: important to say to teachers two things. This is big change we're talking about, and you can't get there except one step at a time. So, one comment that I make often in differentiated classrooms is to kids, you're responsible for your own next step today, not what the guy next

Carol Ann Tomlinson: you is doing, but

Ross Romano: for your own next step.

So, do you want to start with your environment? Are you kind of itching to do something different with your curriculum? Because that's an okay place to start too. And if you're [00:44:00] really just kind of worried about how

Carol Ann Tomlinson: handle

Ross Romano: vocabulary in your English class, then start there. It's okay if

Carol Ann Tomlinson: start,

Ross Romano: if you're a secondary teacher and have

Carol Ann Tomlinson: whole bunch of classes,

Ross Romano: start with the class that needs you the most in

Carol Ann Tomlinson: way.

But

Ross Romano: it's also okay if you start with the class that's easiest for you, so you're not scared to death every time you go in.

If

Carol Ann Tomlinson: an

Ross Romano: elementary teacher and you absolutely love teaching science,

Carol Ann Tomlinson: think

Ross Romano: about starting in science to go where you need to go. It's a one step at a time thing, and you don't bring home a baby from the hospital and two nights later say, well, I've got

Carol Ann Tomlinson: parenting thing.

Ross Romano: now, I've done that.

Carol Ann Tomlinson: The

Ross Romano: parents I know who have 40 year olds are still learning how

Carol Ann Tomlinson: parent,

Ross Romano: and it's a very different thing at 40 than it was at 4 and 14.

Carol Ann Tomlinson: So

Ross Romano: I think our sense of, as Jay McTighe would say

start small, think big, and go

Carol Ann Tomlinson: an

Ross Romano: early win in October, which is his political statement.

And I think that's really what we need to

Carol Ann Tomlinson: doing as leaders,

Ross Romano: but also encouraging teachers to do it

Carol Ann Tomlinson: themselves,

Ross Romano: Understand the opportunities you have here.

Carol Ann Tomlinson: [00:45:00] And

Ross Romano: say to yourself,

Carol Ann Tomlinson: getting

Ross Romano: there, and I'm going to get there, and I'm pretty psyched

Carol Ann Tomlinson: that,

Ross Romano: but start one step at

Carol Ann Tomlinson: time

Ross Romano: and start in a place. You feel like

Carol Ann Tomlinson: can have

Ross Romano: an early win. And then, as Rose says, keep thinking about it. Keep reflecting on it.

Keep asking what's working for whom and why and what's not working for whom and why

Carol Ann Tomlinson: one

Ross Romano: of the lines that I love. I love a lot of his work, but in his first Honker big book, he said, we ought to, we need to quit asking what works,

Carol Ann Tomlinson: because

Ross Romano: the idea that one thing's going to work for everybody is nuts. So, the question really is what's working for whom, and why is it working for

Carol Ann Tomlinson: person, and

Ross Romano: why is it working right now, and when it's not working for somebody, why?

And it's just that constant studying. If parents knew how hard parenting was, they'd probably leave more of those kids in the hospital. But, you know, once you own them, once you own those kids, you have

Carol Ann Tomlinson: keep

Ross Romano: slogging

Carol Ann Tomlinson: you

Ross Romano: want to do it well. And I don't

Carol Ann Tomlinson: we're

Ross Romano: asking more than that.

Teaching's hard, and it ought to be.

Carol Ann Tomlinson: And

Ross Romano: we say to kids all the[00:46:00]

Carol Ann Tomlinson: you

Ross Romano: can do hard things. So can't teachers one step at a time. So maybe that's part of it. So as we're kind of, getting towards the end here, and this could go on and on, but I want to give you each maybe a chance for some closing thoughts to kind of, you know, summarize, like, what.

If somebody was listening to this and, and trying to think about what should I take away from this conversation or or, or if I, if somebody asked me what was that episode about, and I need to give them an answer what would be your, you know, your message to a listener? Like the most important thing to take away to think about?

Carol, I'll, I'll let you go first. I think. You know,

Carol Ann Tomlinson: in a

Ross Romano: said about writ

Carol Ann Tomlinson: writ large,

Ross Romano: the boundaries of our teaching that don't work very well these days. We teach

Carol Ann Tomlinson: much

Ross Romano: the same way we did

Carol Ann Tomlinson: when the

Ross Romano: Westward Expansion was happening in

Carol Ann Tomlinson: United States.

Ross Romano: we teach in much

Carol Ann Tomlinson: [00:47:00] same

Ross Romano: way we did, you know, in

Carol Ann Tomlinson: War I, World War II.

Ross Romano: And we really have done very few things to examine those practices that have a life of their own. So consider the human beings who come to us. And remember that those human beings are not only

Carol Ann Tomlinson: responsibility,

Ross Romano: but they're our opportunity, and even if you don't really have very clear sense of direction, you can sit down and say, let's look at these people.

Who's excited to come to class? Who doesn't show up? Who shows up, but isn't really show up? What kids trying really hard, but working against

Carol Ann Tomlinson: tide? What can

Ross Romano: we do to push against those boundaries? And I think UDL and DI are heading in that same direction. (ad here)

Katie Novak: So I oftentimes use analogies and for me, the analogy that I use often is, I was a basketball player. I mean, I'm going super glory days because I haven't played basketball since high school,

Ross Romano: but I was a pretty good baller in high school.

Katie Novak: And if you think of all of the different discrete things that you have to [00:48:00] do.

in basketball, you'd be buried, right? If you're talking about, I have to learn all these passes and all of these plays, and I have to dribble, and I have to have a high vertical, and I have to be able to do out of bounds plays, and fast breaks, and zone defense, and man to man defense, and it goes on and on and on.

You could list these things forever, and We're not overwhelmed because we simply

Ross Romano: say,

Katie Novak: it's basketball and you take a lot of different tips from

Ross Romano: different

Katie Novak: of your life, right? Different coaches, different professional teams you're watching and the end of the day you create your own version of the game, right?

And we know now, you know, Caitlin Clark's created her own version of the game and Jason Tatum from the Celtics has created his own version of the game. But all of them are really pulling from the same, I

Ross Romano: guess, perspective. foundations

Katie Novak: of what it means to play basketball. And right now, teachers are required to create more inclusive classrooms where students have really great outcomes.

And if we look at it as trauma informed instruction, SEL, differentiated instruction, [00:49:00] UDL, linguistically appropriate instruction, you know, the 5E framework, and you start thinking about all of these different things, it almost feels like it's

Ross Romano: it's unsustainable.

Katie Novak: But what does it mean

Ross Romano: create?

Katie Novak: An amazing classroom for all kids.

And so these are essentially two frameworks that, you know, have bodies of different research of how do we push back against one size fits all teaching and learning because we believe all kids are really capable. But like the way that teachers balance, not only DI and UDL, but all of these different frameworks, is going to be kind of unique to their own learning environment, their own version of the teaching game.

And that's almost what makes it magical, is how we balance out what we've learned and what our students need. Because again, every basketball game is different. Because

Ross Romano: contextually

Katie Novak: contextually, who we're playing against, who we're playing with, and it's almost like every day in the classroom is different, and so you need to know how to dribble, and you need to know how, [00:50:00] you know, to shoot, and even though two out of bounds plays might be really similar, they're trying to accomplish the same thing.

Right? And so what I'm hearing is that, sure, there are nuances of differences if we made a Venn diagram, but they're both meant to include all students, provide all students with opportunities to learn, provide all opportunities for students to share what they know, but in a way that we're

Ross Romano: constantly learning.

Katie Novak: measuring that impact and making adjustments as necessary because as much as we can predict some barriers, there are some barriers that we will never predict like COVID until it's sitting in our lap and then we need to immediately respond.

Ross Romano: I mean, lots of great thoughts here. Lots of things to listen to.

Listen to this as many times as you like. You're you, there's no limit. I guess my last question to both of you would be you each reference some financial opportunities if, you know, if you could have a dollar [00:51:00] or, or, so every time somebody asks you kind of, what's the difference here before we publish this?

And you might get that question fewer times. Which would you like to just. You know, have the chance at the billion dollars, or would you rather if we go ahead with publishing the episode? I'd take the published episode in a minute. I mean, assuming we said anything clear enough for people to wrap around, you know, if we did that, then yeah, go ahead.

You're good.

Carol Ann Tomlinson: If

Ross Romano: we could, if we could just stop two of those questions, it would be an improvement on the digestive system of both of us, I imagine. I think the title of this is the two billion dollar podcast.

Katie Novak: Ooh.

Ross Romano: I'll get an audience if nothing else.

Katie Novak: Yeah.

Ross Romano: Yeah. All the tips you need. Yes. Well, thank you so much both for being here.

Thank you listeners for being a part of this. We'll put links below if you want to check out any of Katie and Carol's latest books. You can find most of Katie's from CAST and Carol's from ASCD, but we'll put the links there so that you can easily [00:52:00] go and find any other resources, anything else you'd like to use in your school.

Please also do subscribe to the Authority. We lived up to our name for one day at least. We had a couple of real authorities here on the show, but we also have lots of great guests. every week. So please do subscribe, check out some of our other episodes and and let us know anybody you'd like to hear here on the show.

So Katie and Carol, thanks again for being here. Thanks for the opportunity. Thank you.