Small But Mighty with Miriam Plotinsky
Ross Romano: [00:00:00] Welcome in everyone. You are listening to the Authority Podcast here on the Be Podcast Network. Thanks so much as always for being with us. Really We really appreciate all of you listeners who join us each week for these conversations, and I think we'll reward you today with a good one.
My guest is Miriam Plotinsky. Miriam is a national board certified teacher with additional certification in administration and supervision. She is currently an instructional specialist with Montgomery County Public Schools in Maryland. She is the author of several books, including her latest. Small but mighty how everyday habits add up to more manageable and confident teaching that is published by ASCD.[00:01:00]
Miriam, welcome to the show.
Miriam Plotinsky: Hi, thanks for having me.
Ross Romano: Yeah, it's great to have you here. And let's start with the why behind this book what kind of inspired you to write this book in particular?
Miriam Plotinsky: I think initially around, I don't know, 2020 or so, when a lot of people were reading Atomic Habits by James Clear I read it initially just for personal enjoyment. And then, as we sort of went through the pandemic, and then beyond the pandemic, this thing I kept hearing from teachers everywhere was that people kept piling things onto their to do lists.
And it's always been that way, but just more and more it was getting worse, and everyone was overwhelmed, and we saw a lot of attrition going on during that period. I think we're still seeing some of that. And I thought what if habit stacking and also some other principles that come from organizational management could really be shifted into the classroom space and think about how that might work.
For example, I'm a really big fan his name is Joseph McCormick and he's written [00:02:00] a couple books Brief and Noise. Just sort of about how we can cut down on some of the distractors that we have in the workplace. And for example, he talks about meeting villains and how meetings just become this horrible thing.
And I think any teacher alive can identify with that feeling of meetings being pointless or purposeless or not the best use of time. So all these different principles came together. To create this book as really an attempt to give teachers a way to streamline some of their routines and habits without changing the fundamental core of what they do.
Because I think in teaching to last more than the three to five years that most teachers do, you have to have these little tiny moves in place that build over time to make you successful. So that was really the inspiration behind it.
Ross Romano: Excellent. And one thing that was standing out and thinking about what this book really addresses there was this, Line in the the blurb, the endorsement quote that you got from Phyllis Fagel. And she said, small but mighty is an indispensable [00:03:00] guide for any teacher who ever wished that doing the impossible felt more manageable.
Which is that's quite a an endeavor, right? To try to manage the impossible. Would love to in, in light of that, think about like what are some of those big challenges? Some of those. Things that make the job of teacher feel impossible that you really had in mind when determining what was going to be in this book and how you were going to be able to provide practical advice around it,
Miriam Plotinsky: thing for teachers is that there's so much coming at you from all different sides. So, for example not just newer teachers, but teachers in general have concerns about classroom management, about what they're going to teach the next day, the next week, the next month, how all of that's going to work, planning, the cycle we have of planning instruction, executing instruction, thinking about what happens afterward.
We have our, the demands on our time that occur outside the classroom, whether It's required meetings or committees or the other pieces we do like sponsoring [00:04:00] student clubs or organizations, meeting with parents meeting with leaders. I mean, it just, it goes on and on and on. So in my brain, I tried to really sort these into the areas that I thought represented the most need.
So the book is organized into before instruction. Which is really that planning piece. During instruction, which is those minutes, what we call bell to bell in the classroom, and then after instruction. And then there's also a special section on well being and belonging for both teachers and students and habits around that.
And for that section I leaned heavily, not just on Phyllis Fagle who you just mentioned, but on Alex Chevron Vanee, who also is a huge expert in trauma informed instruction. Social emotional learning, because that is a little bit outside my scope of practice and I wanted to get some expert opinions on how we manage that in those little meaningful ways. (ad here)
Ross Romano: are there any of those areas, particularly the before during after instruction breakdown that are. I don't know, particularly hard to get into the right habits or the the areas where the ability to even [00:05:00] reflect and think about what teachers want to do is the most limited as far as I think being able to carve out the time to to really make decisions.
Miriam Plotinsky: For most teachers, being in the classroom with kids is not the hardest part. The part is what happens before that, where they are trying to figure out what to prioritize, how to teach it, What it looks like and you know in the earlier years of teaching especially it really is a survival mode approach to what are we doing next, what are we doing next, what are we doing next, and it doesn't have that sort of overarching backward design piece that I think cements itself a lot more as you become more experienced.
The thing is, if you don't plan for certain things to happen, they won't happen. So, for example, right now we're seeing a lot of classrooms where kids are sitting pretty quietly and not engaging as much as they did in prior years. That's something you can plan for. You can plan for ways to create those [00:06:00] conversations and to draw students out and to achieve those goals.
But it has to happen ahead of time and not before that. So, sorry, not after that. So, we get into the classroom and it's too late. And then. We have the panic of, not just I'm teaching, but what if the lesson went wrong? And what do I do about it? And it's hard to find the time to reflect. So for me, I always felt like trying to head some of this off the path with the planning cycle is the most important.
Ross Romano: One of the things that stood out as far as introducing why I think why the book is around habits and and what the importance of that is, is you write about. Habits over motivation is kind of the key to sustaining achieving success, but sustaining it. And we'd love to hear you talk through that a bit.
What what are some of the shortcomings, I guess, of motivation as the main driver and how. Developing [00:07:00] habits. It can be more effective.
Miriam Plotinsky: Yeah, we talk about motivation so much in education, and I was always taught that the gold standard was what we call intrinsic motivation. So we want motivation to come from within. And we feel like if we can somehow help children develop this, that they will be ultimately successful. I think the problem with motivation is that whether it's extrinsic or intrinsic, and obviously intrinsic is better.
It can be very transient. And I think an example I might give in the book, or I might have given somewhere else is suppose you have a student athlete who is motivated, very motivated, gets up every day, let's say we've got a swimmer, they get up super early in the morning, trains, everything's going great, grades, eligibility is determined by grades, they're very successful, everything's going well, and then one day, they get injured.
Or something sidelines them. Where is the motivation to continue at that point. Very often it goes away and we see entire behavior changes occur in kids who behaved differently before. So, what I think about habits is if the [00:08:00] same student has the habit of getting up at a certain time and doing work in a certain way and they build these little tiny pieces on one another, I'm going to write down my assignments every day.
And they're just going through these little tiny steps. The motivation stops mattering so much because the rote process of what they're doing is still going to be there, even when the motivation deserts them. And we're all like this. We see this in adult behavior too, you know? It's a very classic January 1st behavior.
Oh, I'm going to revamp my life. New Year's resolutions. Yay. A few weeks later, you lose the motivation to do that. But if you had certain habits in place, like if your habit is to become a healthier eater, and you have access to, All sorts of wonderfully healthy foods, and you create friction, and this is a concept that James Clear talks about, with the less healthy foods by not having them available, or having them up in an inaccessible space, or whatever it is you're doing.
You can change your behavior with those little habits, so that when you decide, I'm done with this, you've created a different environment. And it's a lot easier [00:09:00] to continue on the path without that, that more transparent piece of it.
Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah, I guess in a way determining the right habits kind of makes motivation manageable. And I mean, if we have our big picture motivation around our purpose, our goals, our long term ambitions, it's hard to eat. See how every day or every activity or everything fits into that and it's easy to go astray, but breaking it down into small pieces, right?
You can motivate yourself to do to eat. One healthy snack or to do one assignment or whatever it is. And then they,
Miriam Plotinsky: or in
Ross Romano: up, you're right about habits that,
Miriam Plotinsky: yeah just to keep going sometimes as a teacher, I think that we, there are very demotivating days in teaching, where everything is going wrong, or people are being unappreciative, which is very common. So, one thing that I recommend in the [00:10:00] book is that we build in the habit of having moments in every day that are joyful for us.
And they're little tiny things, like one of my biggest things has been every day, even if it's for five minutes, Leaving the cinder block and going outside and seeing that there's a world out there. And that can be a very powerful game changer. And brain studies have shown this too in terms of our rhythms and our approach and our mindset.
So just trying to build those habits in so that when things are not going well, we're still going to be okay.
Ross Romano: the, I guess that habit building face when in this case, a teacher has identified, here's the areas where I can most use some new habits. And these are the things I want to start doing. And maybe there's some trial and error or some, okay. I. Did it well for a few days and then missed the day or whatever, like, can you talk about what you would recommend that look like in kind of Course correcting, you know [00:11:00] getting back on track staying on track like not allowing the whole Endeavor to you know to go awry Because it didn't work perfectly
Miriam Plotinsky: Absolutely. So I've worked with many teachers who are struggling in various ways. And let's say that we have a teacher who, and this is a common concern at the beginning of class, it's always chaotic. Kids have a hard time settling down. They're not sure what to do. And so with that teacher, I'm going to try to help them develop a series of habits around the first five to 10 minutes of class, how we frame, how we activate.
They're going to be, we're going to start small. I'm going to say, okay. For today, or just for the next week, our goal is to make sure that kids are explicitly told what our objective is for the day. And you're going to do that. And even if they're not receiving it the way you want, you're still going to go ahead and do that.
And then, the next week after you've done that, we're going to add going through the framing for the day. And so [00:12:00] we piece it out. The whole point behind this is that it's not going to take a day or two or even a week or two for the class to start settling down immediately. But we'll start to see gradual improvements.
And so, we really want to sit with one habit at a time for at least a few days, get comfortable in it, and then add the next one. That's what habit stacking is really about. It's about gradually wading into something that if you do it all at once, it's overwhelming. If I say to a teacher, hey, you're not framing your class, and it's a disaster at the beginning of every period, Fix it.
Here are all the things you need to do that. They're really going to stumble and fall a lot more than if I say, Okay, well, we're just doing these two things. And let's try them. Let's keep trying them. How's it working? Let's reflect on it. What could have been better? What do we still need to work on?
Oh, it didn't work. That's okay. What else can we try? And just having that very open approach of, Let's figure out what works for you as a teacher. And how you can become a lot more comfortable with those spaces at the beginning of the class. Because transitional times are really difficult, and that's just one area where I see a lot of struggle.
So that, that's one example. And I think just also [00:13:00] normalizing the fact that, even for the most adept, experienced, veteran, whatever teacher, sometimes the first five to ten minutes of class are pretty rough.
Ross Romano: Yeah, I mean, and how what is that process? And we're looking across, of course, you have a variety of recommendations across the stages would be said before, during, after instruction, and there's the well being habits as far as how, where an individual would determine where to start, or what's the biggest pain point for them?
Where are they having the biggest issues? Where are the, Bad habits that they need to break, right? Like, would you recommend going through this sequentially? Or just sort of being attuned to here's what I have had less intention around, or here's where I seem to be having the most struggle.
Miriam Plotinsky: It's interesting, because it could be either or. What I typically try to do with my books, the way that I write them, is I try to make it so that you could literally flip around, [00:14:00] find something that looks nice, and that fits you, and try it out and see what happens. So, for me, I really want people to find spaces where there's energy and think, oh, I could do this because this sounds like me, or, oh, this is something I really could use some practice on.
Because, for example, and I'm just cheating here by looking at my table of contents for a minute, but under during instruction, I've got three buckets that I divided into. Management, engagement, and assessment. And I might as a teacher want to work on all three of those, but I'm probably going to feel like I need to work on one of them the most.
Like maybe engagement is something I want to work on. You could also go through it sequentially. And the only reason I would ever recommend that is that, especially in the earlier years, a lot of your intuition about what you're doing right or doing wrong or what you could improve might be a little off.
And not necessarily supported by data other than your own anecdotal awareness. So, sometimes it helps to just be open to ideas that might not seem like you need them, and then you're surprised.
Ross Romano: Yeah. I mean, I would [00:15:00] observe that something that's not, it's not exclusive to teaching, but it is part of teaching and in particular with the objective of finding what works continuing to do better. Right. Determining which things are having a positive impact on students that the smaller components that different actions can be broken down into the easier it is to identify cause and effect and say, on the whole, it's if you're just thinking about your entire.
teaching practice, right? Within that, it's hard to wrap your head around what are the things that are having the most impact. What are the things that are definitely contributing to success? What are the things that might be having the opposite effect? What are the things that You know, have relatively limited effect.
And [00:16:00] but when I can think about each of the actions activities the different habits and be able to look at them directly. I can see. Oh, when I do this and the better I am at this, there's clear results from it. This other thing, I'm not quite sure. Or this other thing, this seems to actually be having the opposite of the intended effect, whatever that may be.
But seems like could be helpful in that way, to the point of one of the one of the challenges. I suppose to committing to new practices, new habits, new things is uncertainty or skepticism that they'll work, that they'll do anything. And what if I put all this effort into learning this new thing, learning this new Instructional technology tool and how to use it, learning this, whatever, right, and am I even going to know if it was worth doing?
How am I going to know if it and so, yeah, I [00:17:00] guess just to the point of what, what is helping to sustain to say, I'm going to commit to this. I'm going to try it. And I'm going to know at a certain point, if it's working, if it is I'm motivated to stick with it, right? If it's not, I can adjust or abandon or try something new.
But I'm not afraid to commit to it as a start because I'll, I will have some clarity on whether or not that was the right thing. I guess, I don't know. I don't know if there's a question in there, but
Miriam Plotinsky: I mean, there's a few different pieces of that, right? First of all, I'm a big believer in consistency. I think I learned this lesson and first of all, I want to give a, the I want to be clear that I don't think that teaching and parenting are really alike. However, when I was a new parent and this was many, many years ago I was trying to teach my firstborn to sleep.
And what I learned was that it was awful first of all, and I felt like I was failing constantly. But if you just stuck with the thing that you were doing long enough, [00:18:00] it eventually did work. So there's something to that, to sticking with things through that uncomfortable phase, to kind of come through to the other side.
So being consistent with any change you're trying to implement is really important. I think it's a human tendency to give up too quickly, to decide that it's not working because we're uncomfortable and because we don't like what we're seeing. So that's the first thing. And I think the second thing is that with trying new things with students, we often miss the very obvious thing that we're supposed to do, which is to ask them if it's working. I very strongly remember I was sitting with a team of teachers, and they were talking about a book, and the kids were reading the book, and it was like the first time that kids were reading the book, and they were so astonished and happy, but astonished because that wasn't the usual thing. And I remember asking them, well, did you ask the kids why they're reading it?
And it just hadn't occurred to them to do that. I think, when we're trying something and we're not sure if it's working, we have to ask students, say, hey, I'm doing this. [00:19:00] We are doing this together, and I don't know if you've noticed, but I've been trying this thing. Is it helping you? If it is, tell me why.
If it's not, tell me why not. And then we'll have a little bit more information other than just our feeling, our gut feeling, which as I mentioned, really betrays us a lot. You know, very often what kids tell us, either positively or negatively, will surprise us. So I believe in testing the temperature with them. (ad here)
Ross Romano: I think there's a good point in there that this is an over, certainly an overgeneralization of it, but there's truth within it to say, like, it's the consistency of the habits that has more power than the, Specifics of them, right? That there's a lot of different ways to do things that there's a lot of ways to achieve success.
If you are consistent with it and stick with it.
Miriam Plotinsky: Because it's not glamorous. I mean, I, for example, like many people, get hangry. So, if [00:20:00] I am not very well prepared for a day, and I have a job where I travel from school to school, so I have the habit of packing everything the night before and making sure I'm all set to go, and that has nothing to do with my actual job.
However, if I don't do that, I can't do my job because my brain's not in the place it's supposed to be in, and I'll get distracted by feelings that have nothing to do with my daily function. That's a tiny habit, it makes a huge difference.
Ross Romano: Yeah, how about the the well, being habits area and habits for teachers have it's for students. And what's what that's about? Why? And why that is an important part of this book. Yeah.
Miriam Plotinsky: Kids on the side of where we're talking about with kids right now, they're obviously, they're having anxiety at pretty record levels right now. In fact, there's a book that's pretty hot right now called The Anxious Generation, all about what kids are going through. And we need to find ways to manage that.
I was talking about one of the strategies earlier today that is shared in the book. It's one of Phyllis's strategies called a [00:21:00] coping jar. And what kids do is they have a jar, there's a jar in the classroom and there's popsicle sticks. And when a kid identifies a way that they cope with something productively, they write down the strategy on one side and then explain it on the other.
And the kids gather this jar of popsicle sticks, and then they can pull them out. Like if they're having an anxious moment, go to the corner where this jar is, pull it out, look through, see if something works for you. So, just really recognizing, first of all, the emotional side of, sometimes kids aren't ready for learning, and we can do things to help them with that.
And then from an academic side, just making sure our classrooms are safe spaces for them eliminating practices like cold calling, which just really make everybody nervous, and I shouldn't say everybody, there are kids who are vocal processors who feel really comfortable throwing out whatever idea comes into their heads and no shame, but there are most kids have at least some Some sense of trepidation around that, and so coming up with better structures for how we hear from kids and making sure they have a chance to process with one [00:22:00] another or do something safely before we, we implement anything that looks like a gotcha.
So that's on the student side of things, both emotionally and academically, and then for teachers, really making sure that we have a few really important pieces in place that we have teacher colleagues that we can not just collaborate with, but that we can. Sound off to that are again that psychologically safe space for us that we become part of a community in some way.
I think going to school and working all day and going home and not ever going outside that academic scope of what you do. It's 1 way to do it. And some people do. It's really difficult though. You feel much more connected when you get involved in some aspect of the community around you. And that can be really enriching.
And then, of course, Doing those little moves that I mentioned, whether it's finding, if there is one, any space in a building where you can be alone for five minutes just to not hear noise around you. Anything that's going to help you recharge and making sure that you hold yourself accountable for doing [00:23:00] that.
Because we cannot it's the oxygen mask analogy. We can't really help anybody if we're not ourselves okay. And I also think it's hard because We tend to minimize this and say, Oh, practice self care and then not give teachers the time and space to do this. So this book that I've written operates under the assumption that people aren't going to do that for you.
Ross Romano: Right
Miriam Plotinsky: that also you don't have much time. So here are some tiny things you can do.
Ross Romano: Yeah what, I mean, I'm wondering, I guess, what, would it or could it look like, is this practice of developing habits designed to exclusively be, like, An individual pursuit is there an element of trying to build community around it or right have like colleagues in the building attempting to it, not that they're necessarily all [00:24:00] have the same things that they think are important to them.
But, how might it make a difference to try to work toward it together and support one another in in the process?
Miriam Plotinsky: Well, absolutely, because it does work on both levels of the individual and the group. I mean, I recently observed one of those situations where you go into a bunch of, say, I don't know, sixth grade classes. In the same day, in the same content, and they're all doing different things. And you're thinking, huh, wouldn't life be easier if they all got together and planned in this PLC in a very functional way?
And one habit they could, and there are structural recommendations in the book as well for how do we work. Okay, so one of our habits might be that we have rotating roles as a group. And so. This week, I'm the one who's going to send out the agenda, and you're going to be the one who, so just make sure everyone has a job, and then another habit might be, we are always going to ground our [00:25:00] meeting in whatever content standard we're deciding is important this week, and we're going to bring student work to discuss that, so just establish, and some people might call them norms, I kind of hate that word, but it's just a series of things you're doing as a group to try to make sure that you are working together, I'm To help kids because it has to be a coordinated effort and in so doing you're making your own teaching life easier It's so much harder to have four people doing different things with the same Ultimate goals, but not really ever communicating about it.
So I think it has to be both
Ross Romano: Oh, it's what's the lesson in here for administrators around creating the conditions for for teachers to feel as though. This is a practical thing, going back to the earlier point of doing the impossible and making it manageable and understanding how so much of that is, is driven by the conditions and the environment within [00:26:00] schools and the number of demands and the you know, maybe limited time allocated for, or That personal development part of professional learning, right?
And of that reflective piece of being able to evaluate one's own practice and figure out what are some things I want to try. And you know, so I guess. Yeah, to that point of saying, okay if we are sort of aware of this and feeling like this would be an effective thing and would be not only toward the professional success, but the wellness and well being of our staff and faculty, what do I need to do to ensure that there is an opportunity for them to really go about it?
Miriam Plotinsky: Yeah, and I think one of the things that I think about a lot when it comes to this kind of thing is, I wrote a whole book called Lead Like a Teacher because I felt as though teachers [00:27:00] don't have a voice in schools, and they are these amazing in house experts. That we tend to disregard. And, for example, you mentioned professional learning.
How often do administrators consult with teachers before they decide on a course of professional learning? And then how often are teachers a part of the leadership of that? And that's really something I feel is a habit that would be wonderful for school leaders to develop. So, for example you know, instead of sitting in a closed conference room with a bunch of other leaders and deciding among the five of you or whoever.
That this year we have to focus on discourse. That's what everyone needs to do. Everyone needs to talk more in a classroom. So we're going to make that our instructional goal. And we're going to bring in people from the outside. And they're going to train. And then teachers are sitting there feeling completely disconnected from it.
Often feeling like they have nothing to do with this. That they're already doing this. You know, I can go on and on. So what if there were teachers in that conference room? That's a habit we made sure we built, you know. We're going to [00:28:00] invite teachers into the room to plan our professional learning. And we are going to make sure that we are knowledgeable enough as the leaders in this building that we have gone into enough classrooms that we know who does this well. And the people who do this well can help teach the people who still need to grow in it. And that way it becomes a whole school effort and you, because I know from experience that teachers listen to teachers. far less likely to listen to leaders or to outside experts. So this is just a big thing that leaders can do to really elevate the instructional expertise.
Because that's what teachers are. They're the instructional gold mine in your school. And you know, administrators, no matter how amazing you were, whenever it was that you taught and some people have taught rather recently and for rather long. So I'm not trying to minimize that. You're still not in it right now.
And that makes a difference. I'm sorry. It's a hard truth to acknowledge, but when you're out.
Ross Romano: What, so if you know, an educator picks up the book and then starts reading through it with full intention of following through on [00:29:00] its advice but they're having some difficulty with it, what, like, what are some of the most likely reasons why someone may have difficulty getting from reading to doing?
Miriam Plotinsky: I think a lot of the time with education books in general, we stay too far in the theoretical and we don't get into the practical. That's why the more the, with every book that I've written, the figures and tables start to expand hugely because I think that we need the tools more than anything else.
There should be an explanation and a rationale and the research behind it. I'm not saying that. I just don't think that that should be the biggest emphasis. So if you are flipping through and none of these tools or strategies are really working for you what I would recommend is trying to. Bring some of them to a trusted colleague who does something that's what we call job alike, level alike, and see whether they have success with it.
Because they might find a way to try something that you haven't thought of, or they can just be a thought partner, say, Hey I have been [00:30:00] trying to use this feedback method on my students now. for a month and I've been doing it consistently and I just don't see how it's helping. Am I missing something?
What could I be doing better? And sometimes they'll have a tweak on whatever it is that's in a book because it's in a book. It's not alive, right? So books have a limited capacity to help real life people. You have to bring in people to help you with that who are nearby and who can give you that assistance.
I also, by the way, and this is just something that I love to do people contact me all the time and say, Hey, Doing this, what would you think? And I love that. That's my favorite kind of email to answer.
Ross Romano: Excellent. Well, Miriam, I mean, I think there's. Tons more to talk about with this book, but I know you also have new projects of coming what are you working on next? And what's it all about?
Miriam Plotinsky: So I have with SolutionTree, just signed two different book contracts. So I'm actively writing, very actively. One of them is for, and I have to look at this because I never remember my working titles. But I [00:31:00] believe the working title is Not Just Talk, Strategies to Increase Student Participation Across the Language Domains.
And so I'm writing about how to help kids participate, not just in talking, because I think that's just one way they can do it. So really to increase their expressive and receptive language, to really benefit Active learning, and I just wrote the chapter on listening and that was interesting for me because I was thinking how can we isolate listening as a skill in a classroom where someone's doing nothing but listening.
So it's been fun for me. And then the second book is actually this is really exciting. It's going to be a second edition of my first book, which was called Teach More, Hover Less, and it's going to have a lot more in it because I'm updating it from 2022, which doesn't seem like that long ago, but in education, it is forever.
And that was a book on student centered learning and how you move through four stages to get a more student centered learning classroom.
Ross Romano: Excellent. Well, when the next one comes out, you'll have to come back to talk about it. Listeners, you can learn more at Miriam's website, [00:32:00] miriamplatinsky. com, and we'll link to that below. And also you can get this book, Small but Mighty from ASCD. We'll put the link there too. Anything in particular, I know you mentioned people can reach out if they have questions about the book, but anything they should check out there on your website or yeah, anything else you want to plug.
Miriam Plotinsky: Ever really plug anything except that I have this endless desire to make sure that whatever I put in teacher's hands, they can walk into a class on the next day and use. I really like to hear when things are working and when things aren't because that helps me refine and make everything I do as useful as possible for people.
So I really encourage everyone to use that contact form on the website. And to get in touch with any questions or wonderings. Also, this is, maybe this is a plug, I actually am interviewing teachers from all over the country right now for my participation book, to get their best strategies. So if anyone's interested, they can also contact me on the form and I will send them the information to participate and perhaps get their thoughts published.
Ross Romano: Excellent. Well, check that out, everyone. And we'll put the links [00:33:00] below. And if you head over to the book page at ASCD, you can read the first couple chapters right on the website there and get a really good sense of what the book's all about. And and of course, you've heard a lot more here today, so you can check that out.
Check out Miriam's website and and. Stay tuned in the future if we have another episode about some of these upcoming books. And please do subscribe to the Authority if you're not already. We will continue to have new episodes every week. All kinds of conversations about leading, teaching, learning, and and all the things that matter to you.
Miriam, thanks so much for being here.
Miriam Plotinsky: Thanks for having me.
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