Every Student Deserves a Gifted Education with Brian Butler
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Ross Romano: Welcome in, everyone. You are listening to the Authority Podcast here on the Be Podcast Network. Thanks, as always, for being with us. Excited to share a conversation with you today. We're actually talking not only about one book, but two. My guest, Brian Butler, has a couple of recent books out that'll both tie into this conversation, and they're really all about giving every student, The education they deserve a gifted education, a limitless future.
And then we're going to get into both of those. But to tell you a little bit about Brian, he is an educational consultant, speaker, author and award winning former principal, who's passionate about nurturing collaborative school cultures that unlock every student's unlimited potential as a [00:01:00] former school based educator and principal.
Brian worked with countless parents and parent groups, supporting and guiding them in their essential role. nurturing their children's growth and potential. He emphasized the importance of leveraging the unique strengths and insights that each family contributed. Brian is the co author of What About Us, the PLC process, PLC at work process for grades pre k to two teams, and he is the author.
Of the two books we're talking about today, Every Student Deserves a Gifted Education, Five Shifts to Nurture Each Student's Unique Strengths, Passions, and Talents, and Limitless Future, an Action Guide to Nurturing Your Child's Unique Strengths, Passions, and Talents. Brian, welcome to the show.
Brian Butler: Thanks, Ross. I appreciate you having me on.
Ross Romano: Let's start with a little more about you. Can you share a bit more about your personal story, your professional journey. What journey you took to Become an educator. Right. What led you to that point? And then how that brought you [00:02:00] to what you're doing today?
Brian Butler: Sure. You know, it's interesting because my story, I was born in 1965. So I just told everybody my age. I just turned 60 a couple weeks ago. But my story did not start in 1965. My story started in the 1940s. My dad was in high school in the 1940s, and his parents, my grandparents, were sharecroppers.
My, my grandfather had a third grade education, and my grandmother had a fifth grade education. And back in those times, if you think about it, in the 1940s, my grandfather was born in the 1800s. And so, they were in this cycle of poverty. They were sharecroppers my great great grandparents were enslaved Africans.
And so, this cycle of poverty just you know, repeated itself generation after generation. So, in the 1940s, when my dad was in high school, he said to my grandparents, his parents, Mom and Dad, I want to go to college. He would have been the first person in his family to go to college. It wasn't even really thought of in general [00:03:00] for African Americans back then to go to college.
I mean, some people did, but not where they were from. And they were all for it, Ross. They were like, this is a way to break the cycle of poverty. There's only one problem. They were sharecroppers. So they didn't own the land. They didn't own the house they lived in. There was a owner of the land, owner of the house.
They lived in a one room house with an outhouse. He had a number of brothers and sisters. And so they were very excited. And so when the sharecropper, the owner of the land, came to the house, they told him, they were pretty naive. They said Paul's going to go to college. He's going to be the first in the family to go to college.
And. The owner of the land said this, and they were shocked. They said, he said, If Paul goes to college, then I'm going to kick you off the land, and you're going to lose your right to share crop this land. And he closes the door and just leaves. And this was my dad's senior year in high school. And he just decided that he wanted to go.
And [00:04:00] they had to make a decision. Because they weren't getting paid very much. You know, the sharecropper back then, or the owner of the land, got like 85 to 90 percent of their profits. And so they only got to keep like 10 percent of their profits. And they got to live in the house. And so they turned to my, my, my father and said, You gotta go.
Whatever happens, you gotta go. They were actually brilliant because they had this foresight that they knew that education was freedom. They couldn't continue the cycle of poverty and they didn't want my father to continue the life that they had. And so my dad goes to college. And I'm going to make a long story short, but he goes to Bowie State College, which is a historical black university.
Back then, my family was from the eastern shore of Maryland, but he went to Bowie State College. It's Bowie University, I think now and. That first year, they didn't have any phones. So, halfway through the year, my dad was coming home on a break. He hadn't spoken to [00:05:00] his family because he didn't have any phones back then.
They were too poor to have phones. So he got back to his the farm where they lived. What do you think happened? What do you think happened?
Ross Romano: Nobody was there.
Brian Butler: They didn't go. They were gone. The owner of the land made good on that promise that he was going to kick them off the land because education was freedom.
It was acts of opportunity. So, my dad actually goes on and finishes college. He becomes a reading teacher. He eventually becomes a principal, but he becomes a reading teacher. And he does well, he becomes a principal, then he goes back into the classroom. But he has a family he has my brother and my sister who are older, and then me.
My brother and sister, and were outstanding students. My mom I have to say, went to college, she went to Maryland State College, which is University of Maryland Eastern Shore now. And so, my brother and sister, as I said, they were outstanding students. And then came me. I struggled. Literally, mightily to learn how to [00:06:00] read.
And kindergarten and first grade and early on the teacher in primaries, in my primary years had suggested and recommended that I be retained. And my parents said, no, we got this. Because I struggled to learn how to read fluently. I didn't like reading. It was a struggle for me. But I was fortunate.
And this is where my passion comes from. I literally was fortunate because, what did I say my dad was? But it was my dad, a reading teacher. (ad here)
I was literally born in the right family because I had an interventionist at home. If I was born in a different family, I have no idea where I would be today. My trajectory would have been totally different, but I was able to catch up.
My dad and mom read to me at home. It gave us a lot of background knowledge. We went on trips. And so I was able to just catch on and I did fine. Eventually I was never in quote a great student, but I was able to be be solid and they model a lot of the behaviors that.
Allowed me to [00:07:00] be successful, like being persistent and self control and discipline and curiosity. And so those things that are in one of my books that I talk about, those are some of the behaviors that helped me be successful, not just as a student, but as an athlete as well. And so I went to GW, I was able to get a basketball scholarship.
I was pretty good in basketball. I got my undergrad degree in communications. I did not want to be an educator. That's not what I wanted to be. I went overseas and played in Europe for a year. Came back and was looking for a job in radio and television. And I decided that I did not want to move to a small market to kind of work my way up.
So I started Substitute Teach. And I kind of fell in love with it. I had said I would never be an educator because my dad was an educator. And I was like, I want to do something totally different,
Ross Romano: Yeah.
Brian Butler: but I loved it. A principal, excuse me, said, you seem like you're really good at this and you're interested, you're passionate.
And she said, why don't you go back to school? And so I went back to school, got my degree in phys ed. Then I got another degree [00:08:00] a master's degree in, in counseling, finally got a degree or certification in administration, kind of the rest is history. I've spent 36 years in education. I've had an amazing career there have been challenges, but there are so many people who have helped me along the way.
And so my passion is every kid has a talent, every kid has a strength, every kid has a gift. We just have to give them the opportunities, give them the access to find their talents, their passions, their strengths in order for them to fly. And so, again, because of my grandparents for they they knew.
That this was an opportunity and they were going to take a huge hit by losing their opportunity to share crop. And but they knew that this was freedom for my dad. And so I retired as a principal in 2017. I've been consulting for since 2005, but I really been consulting for full time since 2017.
I've written my latest two books. You know, out of this [00:09:00] idea that, and what I've experienced as a principal, that every kid can be successful. And do I say every kid is gifted in everything? No. We have to help them find their passions. Like, some kids are passionate about science. Some kids are passionate about carpentry.
Some kids are passionate about math, or art, or whatever. But, we have to help them and nurture that in them. And so, when I hear people say, that kid can't. It's not the kid. It's the adult. I mean, that's something lacking in the adults that say that that kid can't because all kids can if we give them the opportunity and the support to be able to find their strengths and do what we think that they can do.
So that's what I am today. I know it's a kind of a long winded kind of winding road to where we're going, but I think it's really important for people to understand why I'm so passionate about every kid. It doesn't matter who your background or where you're from. I think we as the adults have the collective knowledge, skills, wisdom, education.
And I said, [00:10:00] collective, I don't want to put this on the backs of one single teacher. If we have a group of people in a school with all these degrees, then we should be able to figure it out for each kid. And my question is, what would you do for your own kid? And if you would do that for your own kid, then you should be willing to do that for anybody's kid, because they are our kids when they come into those schools.
Ross Romano: You know, and it's you're making me think of a lot of things and yeah, I'm afraid that it's going to lead to a very long and potentially either connected or disconnected string of thoughts but related to the importance of the story you just told and the context of who the story is about, right?
You, your father, your grandparents, not Transcribed Hundreds of years ago, like this was now like the history how close it is. And I think like a lot of times we had these conversations and we're going to talk about how to make education effective for every student that we get to these points as [00:11:00] history progresses, where, we just like kind of lose the appreciation for what it took to get to that point and start to maybe lose our perspective on it. I've seen it in some of the trends systemically in education in recent years. These. Kind of trends that I guess indicate like a lack of appreciation for the miracle that is universal public schooling and the fact that it exists and that every kid can go right.
And whether that's related to, I mean, some of the more extreme views about we shouldn't have public schools to vouchers and all that kind of stuff. But I think they all like a lot of it just What it lacks is the, how, like, what that means, and how that is the, like, the foundational public good that enables a society to become what it is and it's [00:12:00] not unique to that.
I think it You know, relates to a lot of other things that as we get certain we get a certain number of years beyond say World War Two, right? And the people who were involved in it are no longer here. And it's like, yeah, but that was not that long ago, right? You know, and it's like that, that was, it's not something in the distant past.
There's the very real things.
Brian Butler: in schooling. I mean, to be honest, it's really for our history. It's the one thing that can tie people together. And that actually is the vehicle for people to have upward mobility education. Right? And so if we can see that for, like I said, for our own kids, then we have to see that for other kids and we have to have this passion and this drive to do whatever we can to ensure that, that they have the opportunities.
I mean, there's huge opportunity gaps for our kids. And so, like I said, I was really like in my book. Every student [00:13:00] deserves a gifted education. In the first chapter, I talk, or the introduction, I talked about this, that idea with what I just said. Born in the right family. Because if I was born in a different family, I have no idea where my trajectory would have been.
And it shouldn't take for a kid to, quote, be born in the right family to have the opportunities that I had. That's just the luck of the draw, you know? Can I read something to you really quick from my book? It's, It's from every student deserves to get to education and I kind of start off this 1st part with this quote. lesson here is very simple, but it's striking how often it's overlooked. We are so caught up in the myths of the best and the brightest. And the self made that we think outliers spring naturally from the earth. We look at the young Bill Gates and marvel that our world allowed that 13 year old to become a fabulously successful entrepreneur.
But that's the wrong lesson. Our [00:14:00] world only allowed one 13 year old unlimited access to a time sharing terminal in 1968. What if a million teenagers had been given the same opportunity? How many more Microsofts would we have today? To build a better world, we need to replace the patchwork of lucky breaks, arbitrary advantages that determine success, fortunate birthdates, that's me, born in the right family, and happy accidents of history.
with a society that provides opportunities for all. That's from Malcolm Gladwell. And so again, it's like the opportunity gap and sometimes it kind of burns me up because somebody will say my kid is so gifted or my kid is so smart. And I'm saying all kids. If they have the opportunities, they're going to find their passion and find their path just like your kid does.
Your kid just has more opportunities. Just like my own daughters have had abundance of opportunities, but everybody doesn't have those. And [00:15:00] so how can we in schools provide these opportunities? We can't do everything, but we can provide opportunities to hopefully spark something in kids that they are willing to work hard at it and say, Oh, this is something, a path that I want to take.
Or something that I want to try. I might try it, I don't like it, and then I may try another, have another opportunity. But we have to give multiple opportunities for kids so they can kind of find what's going to light their fire. But again Malcolm Gladwell, somebody that I really admire and he did.
He hit it spot on. It's not about somebody who's just quote gifted or just like this the star. It's just this person had an opportunity. His parents were wealthy. His parents had an opportunity to help him work on a computer or a time sharing terminal. But like Malcolm Gladwell.
So what if A million kids have that opportunity. What would our world be today?
Ross Romano: Yeah, no, it's it's very true and and it's important to, to dig into to that, right. And say, what is the, what are [00:16:00] those environmental factors that facilitate that success? And how do we. Create them intentionally for more kids for every kid and not take the lesson that yes, everybody has different strengths, interests, right, different things that they eventually might do, but that's different from saying that there's only some people who are capable and usually, especially in the realm of, Mega success, mega wealth.
Like you can usually draw a line to a lot of opportunities that led to that. It doesn't just happen.
Brian Butler: Yeah, and again, when I talk about every student deserves a gifted education, what I am saying is, I'm starting with the premise that all kids have gifts. And so I'm not saying, I'm doing away with, and again, we're not going to be able to do away with it, but our current system has kids being tested, or creating a portfolio in elementary school at first grade and second [00:17:00] grade and then that portfolio or that test is evaluated to see if you're put in the gifted program.
I'm saying I'm not worried about that. I'm starting with the premise that every kid has a gift because I found as an educator. Over these years, that one, when we test kids in first grade and second grade, many of the kids have no idea what tests they're taking. They don't care. And some of the kids whose parents want them to get into the IFTA program, they've already been prepping them.
So we're not even comparing apples to apples. We have kids who one of the processes is to create a portfolio at home, bring it in and have the committee. Assess it. So what we're doing, Ross, is we're grading the parents because a kid brings a portfolio in from home in first grade or second grade and third grade.
And they have this immaculate portfolio. I'm like, so you could have done some of that, but some of the stuff parents are buying equipment for them, parents are able to support [00:18:00] them. The kid who doesn't have that support at home, that the portfolios aren't going to be equal. So we're not grading the kids or grading the parents.
Right. And so I'm saying. And in my experience, every kid that I have ever worked with has a strength, a passion. If we can give them those opportunities to find it and so, in my book, at the end of the book, I talk about, or I highlight five people who have shown strengths in different areas.
And one of the people I highlight, his name is Andrew Mallon. Andrew was a student who struggled. to read early on. He didn't like school, but he was great with art. He is great with his hands, and his parents realized that early on. So his parents had resources and so they were able to create a wood shop in their garage, and he was, he loved carpentry.
When Andrew got to high school, He was ready to drop out because he just didn't, he just did not like high school. I mean, he didn't like school, [00:19:00] but he did like carpentry and his parents went to the high school and said Andrew is really passionate about carpentry. He's he's worked hard.
He's good at it. Can he take the upper level? Carpentry class because the primary, the first level car carpentry class he's kind of mastered and the school said, no, the parents came back and said, if he doesn't take this class, that's the only thing that's keeping him in school. And so the. Because his parents were able to advocate for him and the school finally relented and allowed him to take that upper level carpentry class when he was in 9th grade or I think 9th or 10th grade.
So he stayed in school. He finished school. He connected with the carpentry teacher. The carpentry teacher eventually helped him get a job as a carpenter. Andrew is now a world class tree sculptor. He goes around the world. He's one of the top 10 in the world of being a tree sculptor. Like he, he takes trees and he creates Tons of different things out of those trees, but think about if Andrew's parents weren't there to [00:20:00] advocate for him to stay in school to be able to take that upper level course, we should be in our as educators.
We are in loco parentis. Every kid doesn't have the Mr and Mrs Mallen to advocate for their Andrew. Right. And so every kid doesn't have those parents. So we as educators should be helping our kids find their strengths and pushing the envelope and challenging the status quo. Like if somebody is really good at something like Andrew was, and we know that's keeping him in school, then why would we not allow him to take that class?
So somebody in that school should be able to say, This kid is strong at this or is passionate this we need to make sure that we're allowing him to take this class or her to take this class. That's what I'm talking about. We as educators have to start looking ourselves in the mirror and saying every kid has a gift.
Let's find it. Now, if they don't have somebody who advocates for them, we have to be the advocates for them within this system, because [00:21:00] if not, then Many might drop out or even drop out psychologically in school. They'll just be just going through the motions. So I, that's what I'm talking about.
Every kid has something that they can offer.
Ross Romano: Yeah. And I mean, in some ways that's even more important now, almost than ever given particularly the past few years, post pandemic the chronic absenteeism challenge has gotten even worse. And that's a big thing. There is evidence that. schooling coursework that kids really want to be taking that they feel like is relevant to them is effective at keeping them in school, keeping them in present and engaged.
Like the absolute necessity is one to graduate is one, them being there, right. But then they're actually engaged and learning because they're taking courses they care about. They see the point of it. Versus as you said, either being Disengaged or truant [00:22:00] and on the path to not graduating when it's very evident to them, well, what I'm learning here is not really of use to me.
Brian Butler: Exactly. And one of the things that I think we are realizing slowly, but through their passions, through what their interest is, interested in, we can teach them literacy. We can teach them numeracy. Through but sometimes we're like so stuck on they have to be in this math class. They have to be in this literacy class, which is fine, but sometimes kids will learn it through hands on you know, project based learning all the things that we can do to help kids.
You know, we want them to be able to read. We want them to be able to balance their checkbooks and do things in their lives after school. But sometimes we have to be a little bit more creative and a little bit more flexible. In our approach.
Ross Romano: So let's talk a little bit about, so every student deserves a gifted education. I think [00:23:00] it's, we should define what is a gifted education. I think you've indicated that in some ways, but but you know, to the title of this book, to even what some of the the quotes that you receive from folks who admitted to, well, when I first heard this, I wasn't totally sure, but now that I've.
You know, read about it now that I've seen what Brian did in his schools right now. I get it. But what do you mean by a gifted education and like, what is the mindset shift that's necessary to basically come to the agreement with the title of this book and with the the possibility of this book.
Brian Butler: Yeah. So as I said before my definition of gifted is really looking at every kid and starting with the premise that every kid has a strength. And so I'm not I'm really. Kind of saying that the old model of gifted education where we're going to test kids and sort and select and rank. [00:24:00] That's not what I'm talking about.
And I, like I said, I those programs are so entrenched in a lot of times parents want those are the loudest parents want those. are the most influential parents with those that they are entrenched. I'm saying well, you can keep those programs, but we're still going to do the same things for all kids that we did.
And so in my former school, for example we said that, and I worked for a huge County who had gifted centers for kids in elementary school. And what I had said is. It doesn't matter who the kid in, kid is in my school, in our school, we're going to do the same things and give them the same opportunities as those kids who get the quote magic ticket or the the lucky star.
And so if we're going to do, for example, Socratic seminar, which is a traditionally gifted kind of a practice. Every kid is going to be able to participate in Socratic Seminar. And so, but we as the adults, we as the adults have to put more [00:25:00] tools in our toolkits to be able to support all kids to be able to access Socratic Seminar.
Some kids may not have the language. Some kids may not have the behavior. So we have to pre teach some of these behaviors. We might have to pre teach some of the academic vocabulary to students so they can access. We might have to. Pre teach some of the academic discourse, how you communicate with each other during Socratic seminar, but we're going to give those opportunities to all kids.
And so in my school, and that's why when I talk about every student deserves a gifted education, and I say five shifts. There are five things that we can do that we, that the teachers, the educators, the adults in the building can do to really change our culture, change our mindset, and our belief system about all kids.
One, we have to start to, and the first one is called f fallacy of fixed intelligence. We have to start to learn about the science of learning and about the brain and about all the information we [00:26:00] have about how all kids can learn at high levels. You know, Carol Dweck talks about this idea of mind, growth mindset, and that intelligence is not fixed.
It's not. We can improve our intelligence. And many of us came up with, oh, he or she has this IQ, or he or she is this, is smart, and this kid is kind of in the middle, and this kid is not. No. Kids come to us at different levels, but they can all improve. And so, we have to start learning. About the brain, the science of the brain, we have to learn about the parts of the brain and in my chapter one of Every student deserves a gifted education Under the fallacy of fixed intelligence.
We learned about the parts of the brain. I teach people about the parts of brain I teach them about the chemicals in the brain and how they affect learning and we as educators have never had You know, courses on this, when we go through our programs, we don't have course in this, especially now, because it's been really updated and the research has been updated.
There is a gentleman named [00:27:00] Dr. George Land, and this is from the 1960s. He was commissioned by NASA to Find out what makes somebody a genius and so what he did is he did this study He did this study where he took five year olds and he was shocked He took five year olds and did this study and he after the study was over He actually identified that 98 percent of the five year olds were creative geniuses And then he followed them five years later and at 10 years old They were he tested them again and only 30% Were still in the category of creative genius five years later when they were 15 He tested them again.
And at that point only 12 percent were Creative genius followed them and then he tested adults And only 2 percent and he's like how can five year olds start off as 98%? Geniuses and by the time they get to adults, they're only [00:28:00] 2 percent geniuses and he said What he attributed that decline to was school, because we are such a factory model we want conformity, and we want, we don't help kids find their creativity, and so he says school actually dumbs down kids to traditional school.
He's like 98 percent of genius, so that's where I start. 90, our, all of our kids are geniuses in their own way. So, I'm going to start with that premise. I'm not going to worry about a test. I'm going to help you find your passion, your gift. And so, that's what we did in, at Mason Crest. So, first, we as a staff, we said we have to really study mindset.
We have to study the brain so we can start to spell, to dispel some of these myths about intelligence. The second thing is, and it's pernicious in our cultures in our school, is this idea of labels. That's my second shift. We got to get rid of these labels. And it's called Labels Be Gone.
That's my second chapter. Because when we label kids we [00:29:00] teach to that label. And it just, it's killing us. So labels like special ed, there are no special ed students. There are general ed students who receive special ed services. Our kids receive start services. Kids are not barcoded. And so, but when we label kids low or medium or high or they're from this side of the town or whatever, then Psychologically, we lower our expectations.
So we really started to watch our language about labeling and there's ample research on labeling and how it lowers our expectations for kids. And so that's a chapter in itself. It's really making sure that we work on not labeling kids, even down to their name. You know, we have in my former school, we had like 35 or 36 birth countries.
40 some languages and kids come from all over and they have different names. But when we start, because some kids names are difficult to pronounce, but when we start giving kids nicknames or just [00:30:00] giving their first name because we have a hard time pronouncing it, that's in a sense labeling, labeling them.
And it actually changes our expectations. And it also changes our relationships. Because if you can't pronounce a kid, that's central to who they are. And if you can't pronounce a kid's name, then they're like, how can I learn from this person? You know, why should I care? And so that's just part of it.
But we label kids by the way we group them, or if we have a paraprofessional always working with certain kids when they come into the classroom, that's a way of labeling. So we have to really think about this idea of, are we barcoding kids? Are we giving them a scarlet letter and changing our expectations because of that label?
So that's chapter two. Chapter three is this idea of obligation of teams. And this is probably most difficult piece because Obligation of teams is about how do we take collective responsibility for every single child? It's not just about one teacher It's about the teachers on that team [00:31:00] Saying these are all of our kids.
It's not your kid or my kid. These are all of our kids. And how do we use our collective knowledge, skills, wisdom, experience to make sure that every child gets across the finish line. And so my, that chapter is about just how teams create norms, how teams work together. I have stories about. You know, I have sports stories on how teams really are vulnerable and how individuals on the teams will share that they're not good at this in this area, but their teammate would pick up the slack.
We have to be able to do that in education. We have to be able to be vulnerable and say Ross in this area. It doesn't seem like I'm very effective. Can I come and watch you teach this this skill or this standard so I can get more, I can become more effective? You know, looking at the data, the students that you're working with, Ross, got 85 percent or 90 percent on this skill.
The students that I'm working with on the same grade level got 40%. I'm not going to look at myself as a bad teacher. I'm going to say, I'm not effective in this area yet. Can my colleagues can I learn from my colleagues? And it's your [00:32:00] responsibility, Ross, to say, yeah, come on in, because these are all of our kids.
If we go back to the days of Ross, you're a fourth grade teacher, I'm a fourth grade teacher, and we have two other fourth grade teachers on the team, and each teacher does their own thing in isolation, they never talk, then, you It's an educational lottery. It's it depends on what kid gets the teacher who might be able to go or is willing to go above and beyond.
That kid is lucky. But if we put our, pool our resources and say these are all of our kids and we're going to share all of our knowledge and our skills, then every kid benefits. So I think that's, that piece is huge. So that's obligation of teams (ad here)
Ross Romano: I want to stop on that and we'll get to the last 2, but I want to stop on those last couple of reinforce it for listeners to make sure that they're really thinking about it. And and 1 of the things that I. Like do sometimes having this conversation is I call it like Introducing a little bit of that friction, to say, okay when we're talking about these and you know, they're they [00:33:00] sound Probably to most listeners like okay.
This sounds good like but to stop on okay. Well It sounds good, right? But it's not happening all the time. So there's something that is preventing it. There's something that's making it challenging. One thing also I do want to know that you helped me learn today is you know, actually this this podcast recently, thanks to our listeners we have attained or reached the top 3 percent of global podcasts, but you actually.
Share that you and I are in the top 2 percent because anybody listening knows that we are creative geniuses, right? But more importantly, kind of, I mean, these 1st 3, like the fallacy of intelligence labels be gone, allegation of teams they're interconnected in an important way.
And especially it relates to the labels and it relates to the culture around. How we name things, how we label, how we think about it and doing that authentically. Right? And it might feel hard at first sometimes it might just feel like [00:34:00] semantics or, well, we're or euphemisms, right? Okay.
We're instead of. Saying a kid is X there's special case. We're going to say something else or you know But the reality is there's a culture around that right that once we start doing it Then it changes the way we think about them. I'm not gonna be able to cite my source,
Brian Butler: way you act, it changes the way you do business.
Ross Romano: right? Well, I mean, I'm not gonna be able to cite my source on this whether it was a study, but you know There was a related Thing that I had read but it was around how your thoughts affect your actions, but also vice versa. And the. You know, specific example was around spouses and the way they felt toward each other and so spouses that went to marriage counseling and said, well, I just don't really feel like I love my spouse that much anymore or whatever.
And they were challenged to say, okay, here's what your task is every day. You need to tell [00:35:00] your spouse you love them. Right. And then over time, they report like they started to feel that again. I mean, I feel like the same thing here. Like, once you're in the habit and used to thinking about kids strengths and their assets and talking about them in that way, it also changes the way you think about that.
And eventually it never occurs to you to use those types of negative labels because your whole mindset has shifted. So while at first, I think for some people it's just like, fine we'll do this or we'll, we won't use those labels, but you know, we know what we really mean. When you have a culture around it and when you're in the practice of it, it really does make you focus more on the strengths.
Brian Butler: Yeah, and so, and the other thing is, I just don't say this, I use research, I use evidence so John Hattie talks about, and he has this huge database of research and he calls it visible learning, and he talks, and he has identified [00:36:00] practices that work. And one of the things that John Hattie does, he, I mean, he's now, he has maybe 230, maybe 240 practices that, that, that work for student achievement.
Some work better than others, and what he has found that in his study is, and he, again, he uses effect sizes and one of the things, I don't want to get too technical, but one of the things he finds is that the average teacher for the average student, Improves a student's learning or for the, for any student improves student learning point three zero.
And he said, just by being alive, a student learned something. So they improve point one zero. So together in a school year, a student. You know, improves 40 in the average student, average teacher's classroom. And this is like the, a huge study. I mean, it's, I mean, thousands of studies and millions of kids.
And so [00:37:00] when he looks at labeling, because labeling is one of the effect sides, one of the practices, he says that labeling, not labeling kids,
So not labeling kids is higher than the average teacher in the average year, so the average teacher is 0. 40. Not labeling kids gives you an effect size of 0. 60, and so some of the research, and that's what we have to do is as educators, we have to look at some of the research and the evidence.
And so it's not just saying we shouldn't label labeling. We know that we should not label kids, but when you look at some of the research and the evidence, it's like, okay, one of the things I do in the back of my book, Ross, is I talk about resistance because in education, we have. So many different initiatives and to be honest educators can get jaded.
We have initiatives all the time but one of my You know colleagues and good friends or two of them Luis Cruz and Anthony Muhammad. They wrote a book called Time for change and before that Anthony [00:38:00] Muhammad wrote a book entitled transforming school culture And he talks about why people resist change and that's what we did in our school is also is use some of these tools.
People resist change because one, they don't know how, like we, we have all these initiatives and we say, okay, you can just do this. And people resist. They're like, well, we haven't had the training. We haven't had the proper time, training, support to do what you're asking us to do. So people resist. So we start by, with this part is by building shared knowledge, learning together, sharing the evidence.
People also resist because they don't know why. Again, we've had so many initiatives, we're like, why should we change? If we get a new principal, they might change the initiative, or they might change. So people have to really understand why. People also resist because they don't trust the leaders. And so, in our building, in my building as a administrator, we always said that the administrators were the lead mistake makers.
We're going to make [00:39:00] as many mistakes as you all. And so, we want to model that it's okay for you all to be creative, for you all to make mistakes. As we're learning, we're going to make mistakes. That's part of the growth mindset. And so, if we are helping people with the how, giving them the proper time, training, and support to do what we're asking them to do.
We're helping them with the rationale, the why. We're actually helping them with the trust piece because we want people to work together and to be transparent because We want to model for teachers what we want teachers to model for kids. If we're saying we want to have a building where we really support the growth mindset, growth mindset is, part of it is being okay with making mistakes and taking risk and being persistent.
And so we want teachers to be able to make mistakes. We don't want anybody to be perfect. We just want progress. And so those three things, if we can do those three things, then we can help people move forward with. Learning about the brain and [00:40:00] intelligence, learning about why it's important for us to get rid of these negative labels.
Why it's important for us to work as teams because we have together. We're much stronger than individually. And so those 3 things. The pieces actually set the soil, or the soil the fertile soil for the next two parts. The next two parts are our superpowers and resistance and inspiration. The first three chapters are like the soil.
The second two chapters the last two chapters are like the seed. And if we don't get the first three chapters right, then it doesn't matter what programs what we do. It's not gonna, it's not gonna take. Because we have to have our culture, our soil, right, to be able to plant the seeds.
Ross Romano: Yeah. So tell us about those last 2 chapters and then 1 of which also was the foundation of your 2nd book.
Brian Butler: Yeah, so, our superpowers I talk, I have two different sections. The first section is a section of seven [00:41:00] superpowers that I talk about teachers really need to embrace. And I'm not going to go through all of them, but one of them is starting with strength. And you had talked about this before. So, if we start with strength, we just start with the premise that kids have strength.
And that we start to identify. cultivate, nurture their strengths, then a lot of things will take care of themselves. If a kid is always coming to remediation, all the time, and nobody ever tells him or her, the kids that they, or they, that they have strengths, then all they're going to think is, I don't have any strengths. So one of them is start with strengths. The other one is there's another one about relationships. We have to make sure that we are truly building relationships and knowing kids kind of foundation where they're coming from their lived experiences. We have to truly know kids lived experiences not to lower expectations.
But to have context, if I have a kid coming from a certain situation, then I can be able to plan accordingly. [00:42:00] Again, it's not to lower expectations. I'm not, Oh, what was that kid? It's okay. My eye is on. The kid and what they're bringing to the table and my other eye is on where am I going to take them, grade level or better and helping them find their passions.
And so again, I have seven superpowers for for teachers and then I have seven superpowers for students. And that's what formed my second book, Limitless Future. So, the seven superpowers for for students are really attitudes, beliefs, behaviors that will take them beyond the academic world.
You know, persistence, that's one of them. Everything that you do in this life needs to, you need to be able to keep going and persist and to be successful. Precise communications is one of them. How do we communicate? For you. Verbally, orally, in writing, are we able to communicate our thoughts in order for us to make sure we're getting our [00:43:00] points, a point across.
Self control, self discipline, that's something, again, that's, that, that's going to serve us well beyond the pre K 12 system, that it will serve us in any area of life that we, we go to. Curiosity. We have to make sure that we're helping in modeling curiosity and helping kids be, become more.
thoughtful about the world and have them just. really think about anything that they want is possible, but they have to believe that and we have to kind of model it. Curiosity is okay. Like they they can think about anything that being anything is possible. And when we say, be curious.
And ask questions and challenge, that's important. One of them is empathy. Empathy is a huge skill in building relationships, and being able to understand others. The last two are flexible thinking, and being able to change directions, and also critical thinking critically, [00:44:00] is looking at something, and being able to sift through what's real and what's not real, but also Being able to pivot when I get new information, if I, if it challenges something that I thought was true, but it's not true any longer or it's not relevant any longer, I should be able to pivot and say, okay, now this is something I believe in.
And the last one is optimism when things are tough and challenging in sports, in life, in school, in any area as we go through this journey, then how do we keep an optimistic spirit? So those seven superpowers for students, I have teachers teach, but I also had some questions as I wrote this book on social media.
I had parents say Brian, we read this book and we love those superpowers for students. And I call them seven essential attributes. And so some parents said, well, why don't you write a book for parents? Because those attributes, parents could be modeling, teaching and reinforcing at home.[00:45:00]
And one of the things I kind of grappled with at first, I'm like, well, I can't. You know, force parents to, to read this. I mean, all parents won't read this, but one of the things I really believe is I can't make parents do anything, but I can influence. And so this book is to help influence parents who get the book to teach, model, reinforce those seven essential attributes.
And at the beginning of the book, I talk about how my own parents. Paul and Doris Butler taught, modeled and reinforced those very seven essential attributes, although they didn't really call them that at the time, I think back now, and that's what they did. And whenever I go in life, I pulled on those skills, on those behaviors to, to move through and to be successful.
And so that's what Limitless Future is about, but I really start off Limitless Future with that story of George Land, who I told you about earlier the researcher who NASA, Hired to read, to do a [00:46:00] study on what makes a genius because I wanted parents to understand your child's a genius. We just have to figure out where the genius at.
So I think that's kind of where the limitless feature came out of just the genesis of parents asking parents who are educators asking about what I write a book for just those seven essential attributes for students or kids. Yeah,
Ross Romano: the skills stand out. You know, as being really nicely in alignment with you know, what currently is called durable skills or and relates over the course of time by many different life skills, social, emotional learning, whatever the name, but that these are skills that are the essential skills aligned to in demand fields to workforce readiness to life success.
Right. And. Yeah. You know, going back to what you talked about earlier and to George Land and the study and the, that factory model or that [00:47:00] how school was kind of educating that out of kids a lot of time that. You know, much of the reason probably why that those things were deprioritized or why it still was a struggle, or it still is today.
A lot of places to say, like, these are what kids need to be learning is because you know, people just, I guess, didn't know how to teach them or felt like they couldn't be learned. Like, they're just intrinsic. And some kids have this. Some kids are creative. Some kids aren't. Some kids are curious or and but in fact, especially in how rapidly evolving the world is and how the jobs of the future are going to be totally different than what we even know about today, these type of skills and persistence and being able to learn about learning, right?
The curiosity to learn new things, communicate, be adaptable, flexible. That is the best thing that you can learn. There's a subject matter knowledge, there's other things, but we can't necessarily know how. Kids will have [00:48:00] to apply all those things in the future, exactly what they're going to be doing, we can anticipate, I think, with a high degree of certainty that they will do more than one thing over the course of their life.
They will have multiple careers, they they will change course a number of times, and in order to do that, they need these skills.
Brian Butler: well, you're exactly right. And one of the things that I, again, I talk about in the book is some of these skills, some of our kids come with because they've been modeled for the first five years of their life. And so when it's time for them to take a, an assessment to go into the gifted program, they are persisting.
They have self control, but some of the kids don't have those attributes yet because they haven't been modeled or taught on a consistent basis. And so we say, this kid is gifted and this kid can't sit still. And that's, so we're not comparing apples to apples. And so it's, we really have to.
Again, rethink how we view kids. [00:49:00] As you know, after 36, 37 years, I truly believe that we rank, sort and select and grade the home. We're not grading the kids. We're grading the home. And I have to be honest because that's when my kids needed something a project, my wife and I would go out and buy things for them and they would get help at home when we one of the things that we did in my former school is we got rid of homework in elementary school and we looked at the research and what is homework supposed to be?
It's supposed to reinforce the learning that was taught during that day. So if it's just supposed to reinforce learning, and a kid goes home, they go home to a computer, to parents that read to them, to parents that are going to support them with their homework, then that's great. But if we have another student who goes home because their parents are working two, three jobs, they go home with other siblings who are not they're there, but they're not going to reinforce their homework, then they come back in, and one student has his or her homework done, and the other student doesn't, [00:50:00] and then we are penalizing the student.
So, what we said is, how can we actually make sure that we are reinforcing what we teach during the day? So, we created what we call a workshop model, where the teacher teaches a lesson. He or she works with small groups of students to reinforce that lesson and they kind of circle through that teacher.
And if a teacher sees that a student get, didn't get something, then they're gonna actually work on reinforcing that standard, that lesson what they that that skill that they taught right there. and have that student practice right there in the classroom so they don't have to go home.
One, it takes the pressure off of home because parents are going crazy anyway with all the things that they have to do. So we're like let's get rid of it. Plus we know in elementary school from the research and you know, it's in John Hattie's research, homework is like, it's not it's like a 0.
1. Effect side so it doesn't really matter in elementary school. And [00:51:00] so like take that off the plate if We can reinforce what we taught during the school day that access homework and that's what we did in our school But we had to learn together. We had to learn about the research We've actually brought parents in to learn with us because you know, when you just we can't just say no homework Because parents will be like, well, what do we do now?
Because sometimes parents use homework because they do it because it was done to them. So we brought parents into our learning together so they can spread the word about, okay, this is what the research says and this is how they're going to reinforce what they taught during the day so kids don't need to do homework.
So we have to make sure that we're, one, involving the community, involving the parents. We did the same thing with growth mindset when we started studying about the brain. We invited parents. We had like a five session book talk as a staff, and we invited just parents who wanted to be a part of that book talk.
And some parents came, and that's I had parents write testimonials in Every Student Deserves a Gifted Education about how [00:52:00] enlightening Learning about growth mindset and fixed mindset from Carol Dweck's work because again, parents only know what they know and they only kind of respond to how they were taught and the schooling that they went through.
Right? So we have to start to, one, as a school system or as a profession, open our And be a little bit vulnerable and open our trainings up to some of our parents so parents are like, Oh this is what they mean. Sometimes we just do stuff and parents are like, either we'll follow what you did or they push back because they're like, they, this is not the way it was done for me.
And we can't continue to do schooling the way we were, that was done to us because we're not preparing kids for our past. We're preparing them for their futures and we can't use. A lot of the things that we did in our past to prepare kids for their futures.
Ross Romano: Yeah, absolutely. So, so Brian, you also have a podcast, a conversation with Brian.
Brian Butler: I do.
Ross Romano: before we wrap up here, wanted to give you a chance to talk a little bit about that and what it's about [00:53:00] and what listeners might expect if they check it out.
Brian Butler: Sure. Before I do that, I just want to say at the end of Every student deserves a gifted education. I talked a little bit about it when I shared about Andrew Mellon, but the last section is called resistance and inspiration. I talked a little bit about the resistance, why people resist, but the inspiration piece is a lot of times people will say, well, this sounds great, but how do we do it?
And so I highlight five school districts. In chapter five that are doing great things on gifted education for all on the growth mindset teachings on just making sure that all kids have access to opportunities. And so I highlight five school districts from around the country.
And also I highlight five people who have really benefited from some of the, essential attributes that I talk about for students. Again, one is Andrew Mallon. So, again, I wanted to make sure that people think Brian writes a book. Well, what does [00:54:00] this look like? And where can I see it in action?
So those are five school districts from around the country, and then five people who I highlighted. My, my podcast is just a podcast, kind of like yours, Ross. It's really just to Talk to educators. I talk to other people, but primarily educators, and because I, I want to highlight the great things that are happening.
We, I think we talked about this early on maybe before we came on, but we have to start shouting to the world what we do as educators. There are so many things that happen in our schools, in our districts. There are great things that are happening. A lot of things are, that are very exciting.
And people need to know about it. Educators are kind of modest. And I want to just shine a light on a lot of the great things that are happening in our country. As I said before, you can have a school where the test scores don't look real great, but you have some kids who are coming in for whatever reason, two, three grade levels behind into the, to the, that year.
And they improve two grade levels with our internal data, but they didn't get [00:55:00] to the they didn't improve three grade levels to be able to pass the state tests, but improving two grade levels in one year is huge. But the general public doesn't hear that. So we have to start shouting to the world, all the stuff that we do that is great.
Now, do we have some challenges and things that we need to look in the mirror and say, we need to change some things and really start to. To ramp up some of our practices and some of our learning. Yeah, but my podcast is to highlight some of the people who are just doing some great things not just in our country around the world.
I've had people from Australia and others on to share because we have similar challenges around the world with education. But I just want to highlight people who are doing some good things, and many of them have written books, many of them have written a number of articles, have been celebrated.
Some of the same people who you've had on, but I just want people to know that we're going to start shouting and becoming going on the offensive with some of the things that are happening in our profession. Because they're great people are [00:56:00] doing a lot of good things for students, and we just need to tell people what we're doing and be transparent about it.
Ross Romano: Yeah. And you end every podcast with as I go, I am wearing you. What tell our listeners about that as
Brian Butler: Yeah I use that at my dad's funeral. One of the things that I say is, there is no self made person on this planet. I do not like that term because everybody has help. Nobody can tell me that they just were successful on their own. And so, I use this old African proverb that my wife shared with me a long time ago, but I use it at my dad's funeral because it's a proverb that really as I go, I am wearing you.
It just talks about all the people who have helped me be successful. When you hear Brian Butler or you see Brian Butler and all the books that I've written for books contributed author, coauthor solo author you know, being in the profession for 36 years. It's not because of Brian Butler.
There are hundreds of people who have poured into me. You know, I wear my grandparents. Unfortunately, I never met my grandfather. [00:57:00] He died before I was born, but I am wearing him. I'm wearing my grandmother, my grandparents on my mom's side, my parents, all the coaches and teachers and educators who poured into me, the people who you know, saw something in me to be an educator.
Everybody who has helped me along the way, I am wearing. And so as you see me, you're seeing hundreds of people who I represent. And I think that's the case for many people who are wearing others who have supported them along the way me being successful. As I said, I was born in the right family and then I had a lot of people help me.
Now, I worked hard. I'm not going to say that. I've tried to treat people well. I've tried to cultivate relationships, but all those things were modeled for me as well, right? And so I'm not going to sit here and say I'm some superstar and it's, it was all me you know, being successful.
Now you're seeing a combination of so many people. who have helped me along the way. So, as I go I am wearing them. And that's kind of where I gather [00:58:00] from.
Ross Romano: Yeah. Well, that really resonates and I think came up in ways both explicit and and subtle in this very conversation. You're I think much. better at citing your sources and remembering where you learn things, but as we have these conversations and do these episodes, right, and, or listen to them, like there's things that you pick up on wisdom that's shared and ideas and it all goes in there somewhere, right?
And it benefits us. And and as you go through our lives and our successes are failures and none of it is is done alone. It's all shared. So, I think it's a great way to tie this all together. And and listeners will put the links below where you can learn more about Brian and his books.
Anything else on your website besides the books, the podcast, anything else listeners should check out.
Brian Butler: No, I mean, if they check out my website they'll find a lot of information and I think that's [00:59:00] about it. I think you know, the last thing I just like to say is, and this is tied into this idea that every kid has a gift. You know, Oliver Wendell Holmes had this quote, Many people die with their music still in them.
We don't want people to die with their gifts still in them when they haven't shared them to the world. I say, what is a gift? A gift is something that we give to others, right? And it makes us feel good. Every kid should have something that they can give to the world that makes them feel good. I don't want kids to die with their music still in them with their gifts still in them.
Ross Romano: Awesome. Well, thank you, Brian, for being here. Thanks to the listeners. Again, we'll put the link below to Brian's website, where you can learn more about all of this. Please do also subscribe to the authority. If you're not already to hear more of our conversations upcoming, or go back and check out some of our older ones.
If you haven't heard them yet, or you just want to hear them again, but we will continue to bring you valuable. Conversations like this with great guests every week. Brian, thanks [01:00:00] again for being here.
Brian Butler: Thanks, Ross. Appreciate it.
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