The Authority Podcast — Expert Insights and Fresh Ideas for Education Leaders

Ross Romano: [00:00:00] You are listening to the Authority Podcast on the BE Podcast Network. And thank you for being here. Once again, listeners, it's really always a pleasure to have you here with us. And we really appreciate that. And this should be another great conversation that touches on topics relevant to leaders in all types of organizations and not least to which educational organizations.

So without further delay, let me introduce my guest today, who is Dr. David L. Schreiner. David is a values driven leader. And a passionate advocate for rural hospitals, having spent most of his life in small towns and working within small communities. His research focuses on improving executive communication, my research focuses on [00:01:00] coughing.

His new book is called Be the Best Part of Their Day, Supercharging Communication with Values Driven Leadership. David, welcome to the show.

David Shreiner: Ross, thank you so much for having me. And , as you were going through that, and I've listened to some of your podcasts, it reminds me of something one of a, one of the board chairman that I interviewed said, how many similarities there are between the education space and the hospital space, and there's the passion that teachers feel along with the same kind of passion that our caregivers have in a hospital.

So I really appreciate you having me. I'm looking forward to the discussion.

Ross Romano: Yeah, I think there are many similarities, not only in the types of values and mission orientation that draws people to those respective professions, right? The importance of the, those systems and the people that they serve. And also many of the core competencies that would make one successful and effective and around communication and you know, the similarities between [00:02:00] involving and engaging a student in their learning plan and a patient in their care plan, right?

All of those things where you can see the difference that it makes and the overall success. So I think a lot of that will come out in our conversation here for listeners to hear and kind of wanted to start , with a question about, And a particular relationship. It's , right there, sort of in the subtitle, as I said, supercharging communication with values driven leadership.

So I wanted to ask you about your perspective on the relationship between leadership and communication and how you describe , the essential way those fit together.

David Shreiner: Yes, that's such a great question, Ross. Thanks for that. I think that in order for leaders to be effective, they , they must have effective communication skills. And that skill is less about what the leader says and more about how they listen, the questions they answer, and most importantly, how they understand the important items that are in front of the person that's closest to the work.

So if we had a principal in the school or a CEO in a hospital how do they listen [00:03:00] to the faculty? How do they listen to the nurses? How do they understand some of the barriers that might be able to be removed in order to allow those people to thrive and operate at the top of their license? So I think they're very much linked.

Ross Romano: And so, communication is critical. And I mean, it comes up again and again here in our conversations. That's why I wanted to start there because it's definitely one of my beliefs that communication is just a critical competency of leadership and leaders who are not putting adequate care and thought into communication are.

So that's why I wanted to start there. And you know, wanted to circle back to the other part, be the best part of their day. One , let's just have it fleshed out. Who is they, right? Their day. And two, when did you first become interested in this idea of wanting to achieve this and exploring it?

David Shreiner: They are the people that are most important to you, the people that are most meaningful to you, and that can be both professionally and personally, because I think a lot of the communication tactics that we talk about, [00:04:00] Ross, and certainly what I have in the book, are related both at the board table and the dinner table, and I think many of those carry over, and there are strong similarities.

I became interested in this when I had the opportunity, through my doctoral dissertation, to interview leaders. And the people that matter the most to them in five rural hospitals across the United States of America. So I interviewed the CEO and then I interviewed their board chairperson, the president of their medical staff.

So a physician, a vice president that reported to them, an hourly employee and a member of the community. So I had the opportunity to do five interviews with each of these health systems. And I heard these leaders talk about how sometimes difficult the workplace is And if there was something that they could do to positive, to positively impact someone and have them go home at night and say , I met with Ross today and that was the best part of my day.

He listened to me. He was genuinely concerned about what we were talking [00:05:00] about. He wanted to learn more and he asked great questions. I mean, I think we all hope that we could have that conversation in homes around the communities that we're in from people that we had a chance to be with during that day.

Ross Romano: (ad here) Yeah. And and yet there, there of course is a difference between wanting to do this and knowing how to do it. And I think you wrote in the book about , there was a gap to close in your own journey when you first decided, okay, I have this idea in mind and I think this should be my objective is you know, to really be the best part of the day around me, but.

I need to figure out how to make that happen. And I think a lot of people will have that same question of, okay I, I want to do this. I want to be perceived in that way, right? I want people when they go home at the end of the day to feel positive about their interactions with me, to feel energized about their interactions to want to come back tomorrow and see me again, all of the, and [00:06:00] yet, Okay, one , how can I reflect on the things I'm doing, the actions I'm taking, the attitude I'm presenting, and so on, and how that is currently affecting people?

And two, what are the things I need to be doing to make that happen? How did you go about learning how to put it into action.

David Shreiner: Well, I, through my research, I found three major categories and five subcategories under each of those. So I have 15 suggestions, and the book has stories around each of these 15 pieces, and it really is a how to, Ross. It's that idea that I could take any one of these 15 and put this into place today or tomorrow, and the idea would be that if you did a self inventory, and perhaps today you're doing 8 of these 15 traits.

What would happen if I added number 9? What would happen if I could get to number 12? I've already got 8 down. I've been doing that anyway. Here are another [00:07:00] additional 7 things. How much more could I advance my own communication skills with the people that matter to me the most? If I could take on some of these other ideas, and I think that we have to be very specific about that.

It can't be a general idea. It has to be here's the topic. Here's an example of how it was used. And here's something that you can do to make that a part of your repertoire and your skill set.

Ross Romano: Are there any one of those that comes to mind as a good one to illustrate just as a, an introduction to what this looks like and , what it starts to be tangible when we're taking the actions and creating this effect.

David Shreiner: it does. And if it's okay with you, I'll tell you a quick story about it,

Ross Romano: Yeah, absolutely.

David Shreiner: So one of the major three components is to engage and connect at a personal level, and one of the headings underneath that is finding ways to express gratitude. So I had the opportunity to interview an executive team in a hospital in the northeast, in Vermont, and the CEO of this hospital came from a large Catholic family.

[00:08:00] And so when he had reasons to celebrate when their family had reasons to celebrate. They celebrated over meals and that was part of his DNA. So what he brought to the organization was, we're going to have meals where our executive team and our board of directors serve our staff. And we're going to do that on first shift, second shift, third shift.

And we want to do this once a quarter. So his organization was successful enough that they had a lot of rewards and recognition. And there would often be something that came in. that they could focus on. But he said if they didn't, they made something up because he felt it was so important to tell the people working in the front lines how much he loved them and how much he cared for them and how proud he was of the work that they do.

And so he took that over to meals.

Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And that's a great illustration of what that can look like and and the ways I also that our actions communicate our feelings, our thoughts, our care, right? [00:09:00] That there's a broader message that we're wanting to send of showing people that we're thinking about them, that we care about them, that we're invested in them.

You know, we chatted previously and. One of the things that stood out to me when I first saw the title of the book and what the book was about it , it was this idea that this is a phrase that a lot of people in education have heard or talked about being the best part of their day, particularly with respect to students.

And I think there's a real opportunity. Through following the guidance and the ideas presented here to ensure that is seen via an opportunity based, asset based lens of what we can achieve when we go about really seeing it as, yeah, as this great, exciting opportunity to be a positive beacon in somebody's day versus what it sometimes can feel like.

You know, truthfully a [00:10:00] burden, right? When we feel like I have to be the best part. I have to you know, be the one who's going to generate positive feelings and interactions because I'm looking at it from a mindset of somebody who maybe is, I, the rest of their day, I feel like it's not going to have a lot of positivity.

Right? And that may be the reality sometimes , sometimes there may be instances where , Yes you know, on a given day or even series of days, we may be feel or somebody may feel as though the time they're in our care in a school or otherwise is the only good part of their day.

This, maybe this is where there's a difference between healthcare. I don't know. I mean, I think if somebody is under great care, but maybe they're maybe not feeling like, well, the time I get to go to the doctor is the best part of the, but you know, at the same time seeing it as, okay, I know that, I mean, in a way that it wouldn't be very different, I know that [00:11:00] there are things this person is struggling with

David Shreiner: I think there are many,

Ross Romano: this patient, right?

And when they're here, I want them to basically be able to sort of set those worries aside and know that they're, that we care about them. We're serving them and they can focus in on that and focus in on what we're looking to achieve here and not have maybe some of those mental strains of whatever happens when they're outside of this building.

David Shreiner: so let's unpack that a little bit because I think you were on to something really important here if we think about that child that might be in that safe place in the school room, and they have a good meal, and they have someone that cares about them and is asking about how they're doing in a class and trying to help them.

Unlock that secret code to understand what the material is that day. And then we think about a person visiting their family medicine physician that suffers from loneliness that perhaps is an elder that is in a house by themselves all day long, and they can look forward [00:12:00] to going to the doctor. My father.

He's 87 years old. When I call him every morning and talk to him, he spends 50 percent of the time talking about health care, about the doctors that he's seen or the doctors that he's going to see, because it's social interaction that otherwise it's difficult for him to find. So I think you're onto something important, Ross, around that idea that if we treat people with that love and respect, we can be the best part, even though it may not be their favorite thing to do.

There's probably some kids in your classroom that would say, I don't want to be in class. I'd rather not be in school. Just like there are patients that would rather not be in the physician's office or in the hospital. But we can try to find the positives out of that and connect with them in a way. It often takes many different efforts to try to get there.

But once we do, I would also suggest that For the teacher, for the educator there's also that sense of fulfillment that I made a little bit of a breakthrough today and that fills my cup up. I know when I get a chance to do that, even more so with a difficult person, [00:13:00] I feel like that's what I was there for.

That was my purpose for that day,

Ross Romano: Right. Yeah. Well, exactly that word came to mind in my head as well. Purpose of that as the , the other party, again, we're talking about whether it's students, whether it's colleagues and employees, whether it's patients that they can feel as though they're in a place. Where they have a purpose, right?

That it being the best part of their day. It's not just about happy feelings and fun and superficial things, but it could be about like, I know that I'm in a place right now where I'm connected to a purpose where I'm working on something or working towards something that is meaningful. That's important.

That has an outcome, right? It doesn't mean that it could be the difference between other parts of my life that feel sort of disorganized, right? And here I feel like I, I'm on a mission, right? It's not just about, okay [00:14:00] when I leave here, everything stinks or when I'm here, it's great. But it's that, okay, is there somebody here that's helping me see a vision of what the next thing is?

This certainly is the case when you're talking about. Leadership and your team, right? And saying, okay, do we feel like we're clued into a vision here in a mission? Yes, if I'm a student or a patient or somebody who's , having a surgery or something, I may certainly say, Oh, I'd rather be somewhere else other than here, but also I'd rather be here than that other hospital.

I'd rather be here. You know, yes, I don't love coming here all the time, but I'd rather be here than not being cared for because I'm here. I feel a sense of confidence when I leave here. I feel confident in who I am. What happened while I was there. I know what's coming next. It doesn't make all of my challenges disappear, but I know that my time there was well spent.

Same thing , applying again back to students. Okay, I'm glad the bell rang, and it's time to go home, and I can play a [00:15:00] video game or do something else, but I do feel like my time there was productive. It was well spent, and when I come back tomorrow, I'll spend quality time again, and then I'll also be happy to leave at the end of the day.

David Shreiner: right? What I've seen with that in the classroom, in the workplace, there's something for some of us to like that predictability of a schedule. And that's that we might not have outside of our education setting or our workplace setting is things may be, they may be franting. Depending on what's going on with you, what's going on with the people that are in the same household as you and that predictability gives us some comfort and allows us to exhale a little bit sometimes.

And even though that schedule might be really full or that curriculum looks busy, at least we know that B is going to happen after A and there's always going to be a break at 1015 and there's a lunch that's provided. for the student. I think there's some solace in that and I wonder sometimes if we take that a little bit for granted that is an environment that we're gifting people so that they can [00:16:00] set back, relax a little bit and not worry about that part of their life.

I think there's real value in that.

Ross Romano: That's, yeah, and then it's how fortuitous that you bring up the word predictability, because I think in the first 80 plus interviews I've done for this show, I don't think we ever talked about predictability, and now it's come up twice in a week and, yeah, listeners will have heard by now that our episode with Mitch Weathers, and we talked about predictability and then with respect to executive functioning skills and basically how predictability creates a context to be able to focus on, in that case , content mastery, content knowledge acquisition, where I'm not having all these other strains and burnings on my attention and my working memory and my brain because I know, okay, I'm in an environment where, right, there's a logical flow to things.

A follows B. This sequence follows the next sequence. If I do [00:17:00] this, that's going to lead to this outcome. If I do that, it's going to lead to that outcome. And if I don't do what I'm supposed to do, there's a consequence to that, but it's not a surprise to me because I understand that there , there's an order to things, right?

And how. important that can be in all kinds of situations and comforting and it can give me a lot of confidence to say, look, maybe I'm somebody who in the past has had yeah, negative experiences with my bosses or my teachers or my doctors or whomever, right. And any of those that, where from day to day, There was limited predictability.

I go to work, I do what I feel like I'm supposed to do. On Monday, my boss is happy with me. On Tuesday, he's not. Nothing changed other than his reaction, right? You know, that it's so critical,

David Shreiner: And Ross, it is critical, and it reminded me of one of the challenges, I think, that leaders have, is as [00:18:00] you move up the organizational chart, your time is often less structured and more self driven. And for some people, I'll use my daughter for an example, she likes to work in a job where her task is the same every day.

She enjoys that very much. She's a mom with three kids under the age of eight, and that predictability at work is comforting for her. My son is completely different. If he were put in a role where the task was the same all the time, he couldn't do it for three days because he needs that independent thinking.

And that's usually what leaders gravitate towards, is that ability to define their own schedule a little bit more, set their own agenda, and then ideally set the agenda for the organization or the business that they're a part of.

Ross Romano: Yeah,

David Shreiner: wondering, so this would be a question for you, do you see some of the same thing in education where you have teachers that move into administrative roles and sometimes the best teacher is not the best administrator and people that are administrators maybe weren't phenomenal teachers?

I just, I [00:19:00] find that fascinating. I'm curious what you have seen with that or what your thoughts are.

Ross Romano: right. I mean, I think there certainly are growth. Patterns, right? That, that the way many organizations are structured, where being able to move up with a new organization or having proven your mastery of one role leads you to the next role, but the next role might be , Require a very different skill set from the first where I'm of the belief and this is not unanimous and universal but I think most people are of the belief, right, that administrators should have.

Acquired some mastery of teaching first to really understand teaching and learning and to really be an instructional leader in the role. However, it's clearly only one part of the job, right? And there are other pieces that are very different when you're going from managing children of whatever age, right, to managing adults and toggling between that and doing that , there are different things you need to be able to do.

Some things that carry over, some that don't. [00:20:00] I think , to the predictability piece I think there's a lot of time, a lot of times , the reason why that word probably doesn't come up is because of negative connotations around it. Around it feels like boring and not creative and not innovative.

And yet I see it as a lot. A lot different than that, right? Even in the case, the example you shared of your son, I think there could still be predictability in the role as far as , with his, however, the infrastructure with his organization, his supervisor, his role, or people who report to him that they could create agreements around, okay, what does success look like?

And what does it mean and how do we achieve it where we may be doing a variety of different things and creating new things and but yet where we don't have ambiguity around. where we're trying to go. And if we did these things, we know that means it was successful. If we didn't, that means it wasn't right.

And that's predictable in a different way where it might be different every single day. But we have [00:21:00] communicated going back to communication here, and this will come up again and again, that it's a, it's a. Dialogue. It's a two sided conversation. It's an agreement around what we're trying to achieve.

What are our objectives? Have we all had a chance to give input into how we're going to go about achieving those? To request the resources that we require, right? To come into agreement on what are the timelines? What are the, all those various things that creates a predictable structure where if I don't need you to tell me whether or not I was successful or not, because we've already pre discussed it and now I know, okay, yes, I failed.

I didn't fail. In organizations, certainly, where You know, people are believing that they're in line for a raise or a promotion or a bonus or whatever, right? Where I wouldn't need to wait till my end of the year review when I go in and sit down and they tell me, Yes, you earned it or no, you didn't.

I would already [00:22:00] know that because I know what I needed to do to achieve it or not that create, and it's mutually beneficial. And of course we can see how that's beneficial to the employee. But a lot of times it doesn't happen, not out of malice, but out of just lack of attentiveness, maybe by the leader in that case, right?

To understand, okay, if we take these steps, which for me requires me to do a few extra things that maybe I don't typically do, but I'm going to get better results because the people who are working here have total clarity on what they're needing to achieve. And they've had a chance to work out the conditions to achieve it.

You know, so anyway, all of that to say that I think. You know, the better that we implement these ideas from the start and that everybody's involved in them, we would see more consistency and follow through as people move between roles, right? And there's , there's a lot more consistency in the application, but you know, [00:23:00] somebody who's moving into a leadership position, having previously maybe had leaders who were lacking in these areas, they're really going to need to learn it from scratch because they haven't.

Maybe learn it by experience, if that makes sense.

David Shreiner: Sure. No, I understand where you're going with that. I agree.

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Ross Romano: Let's get into the supercharged principles into the core of this. So you described this as a how to, we have these three supercharged principles and write each of them as five parts to them, but you know, we, maybe you won't get in all 15, but let's go one by one for these three, talk about , what they are, what the definition is, and then dig in a little bit.

So, number one, you referenced it earlier, engage and connect at a personal level. Talk a little bit about what that's all about.

David Shreiner: Yes, what I found from the practices that I was able to observe is there were some commonality among how they engaged. And one of those is around the idea of asking great questions and generate positivity. And I think that is certainly a muscle that we have to [00:24:00] flex in order to make it stronger.

It's something that we have to use. And I saw examples of those questions being asked and how the person on the other side of that communication felt valued. through great questions. We mentioned the idea around finding ways to express gratitude. That's something else that I think is so important. And one of the other five, Ross, is the idea of developing outstanding listening skills and practicing them regularly.

So if you'd like, I have a real quick exercise that Listeners could take on. If you, the next person that comes in to speak with you about a challenge or an opportunity that they have in front of them, what I would ask you to do is see if you can go two minutes without talking. No, no talking whatsoever.

No yes, huh, nothing. No talking. And then at the end of that two minute period, or when they finish, whichever is most appropriate, then see if you can ask three questions without trying to solve their [00:25:00] problem. And what I found through this exercise, I do this in some of the workshops that I teach, there are so many things that come out of that.

And the person that is being listened to says, first of all, it's really hard to talk for two minutes. And second of all, I saw in nonverbal ways that they were interested in what I was saying. And so you think about the eye contact and the facial emotions that we show and maybe some hand gestures, that type of thing.

And then by being asked those questions, it helped me to really intentionalize what my issue was and what my thought process was and where I plan to go with this. And the better the questions are, the more completely we move through that kind of exercise. So, so think about that and give it a shot. It's something that I have used again, both in the workplace and at home.

And it's been very successful for me when I don't interrupt and when I ask great questions.

Ross Romano: Yeah, that focus on listening is it's definitely an important part of this [00:26:00] and and that example clearly would be an exercise that would hopefully make one focus on listening, but it's , it's all those little things that you're more likely to pick up on when you have a disposition toward listening and observing before trying to come up with an answer and seeing All those things that lie in between crises and you know, and huge successes, right?

It's the things that people may not even think to necessarily bring to you specifically, that are just sort of opportunities for either, hey, we should do this. tried to do more of that. That thing happened and it wasn't necessarily what we planned on, but it worked. Or this over here seems like it's a little shaky and maybe we could pay more attention to that, but nobody else really noticed it yet.

But listening is so big. And then another one that came out [00:27:00] in this section that is Very very applicable to school leaders. I would classify as intentionality around making oneself accessible. Right. You wrote about when you first started as CEO of the hospital, sometimes being more or less locked in your office not necessarily hiding from people, but also Functionally hiding from people, right?

Because there's the difference between the open doors, the closed doors taking intentional time to walk around the halls to be seen, to allow people to grab you and approach you and say Oh, I have an idea. Let me , people who may be either wouldn't have the time in their busy days or wouldn't have the comfort level to come and knock on the door.

Are you there? Can I bring an idea to you? That as the leader, it's important to really be mindful of, am I putting myself in position to be communicated to right. In addition to the [00:28:00] communication that you're wanting to send out.

David Shreiner: Yeah, you described it very well. Be accessible and show interest in member concerns. And as leaders, we know that we can fill up our days with things to do because it's a never empty bucket, right? There are always so many things to do. And I think if for me, Ross, if I'm not intentional about making time to get out of the office and go throughout the organization, I don't have that.

ability then to have those informal meetings. There are unlimited formal meetings where I get to interact with members of our team, but those informal meetings of running into a doctor in the hallway or finding a member of our housekeeping staff and just stopping for a few minutes, asking how everything's going, what can I do to help you?

Is there anything that I can do to try to allow you to function at the top of your license? You know, simple questions like that, that are open ended, not yes, no. I think they can go so far towards learning a lot about what's important in the organization or in the classroom and also making sure that person had a positive interaction.

Ross Romano: Yeah. [00:29:00] Yeah. It's it's big because in some instances, they may be people who aren't necessarily a part of the formal meetings or the , the formal meetings happening whenever it's happening. And I have an idea in my head right now. And the more opportunities are created for those ideas to pass along, right?

The fewer of them get forgotten or or they don't feel liked. This isn't important enough to bring up in the big meeting, but maybe I might as well mention it now, but how many better ideas end up being at least considered when those , those opportunities are created.

David Shreiner: Yes, and I think the other thing that's important with that is closing the loop, right? Following through and making sure. You can't always say yes. You can't always deliver what the person's looking for. But one of the things that I had a physician tell me when I was a baby CEO was the worst thing you can do is give me a slow no.

If there's something that you know you can't do, [00:30:00] just tell me. The worst thing is to make me call you back three times to try to get an answer. And then at the end of a four week period, you say, no, we couldn't do that. And we both knew in minute one that it wasn't going to happen. So I think that , that's another line that's in here is around the idea of transparency under the second pillar.

But closing that loop is important. It's respect, right? It's human respect.

Ross Romano: Absolutely. Yeah. So to that second pillar, engage with intent through various mediums. What's that all about?

David Shreiner: Yeah, so what I found with that is there were some really important things like the idea of being transparent with high frequency. Can I tell you a quick story about that?

Ross Romano: Yeah.

David Shreiner: One of the hospitals that I interviewed was the very first hospital in their state to have a COVID positive patient. So if we think back to that time period, we didn't know what this disease was.

We didn't know what the ramifications were. We didn't know how communicable it was. And what happened as a result of this is the people in the community said , we COVID is in that hospital. No matter what, don't go. [00:31:00] And so you have a healthcare resource in the community that has a big fence around it, so to speak.

And you can imagine that over a very small period of time that caused financial difficulties because their volume dropped to nothing, which made them look at their staffing levels that they had which, impacted their recruitment and their ability to reinvest. And what this leader decided was that even though there was so much that was unknown, he was going to be very transparent and be transparent often.

So he started putting out a daily email. And then he, that led to a daily video. And sometimes he would have very important information to share Ross. And there were other times where he said, I don't know anything that I didn't know yesterday. There's no new news, but his staff learned to rely on that video coming out at 10 o'clock every morning.

And they found comfort in that. And then , it went from once a day to once a week to once a month as things changed, and that's okay. But it gave him the ability to say that, here's a [00:32:00] protocol change that we have to put into place at 9 o'clock in the morning, and now we heard new information from the Center for Disease Control, and we're going to change what we told you this morning.

And that's okay, because everyone understood there's high transparency there, and we're making the best decision we can with the information we have right now. So, I think that speaks. Strongly to engaging with intent and also understanding that it's a not it's not a one size fits all for medium You might be a visual learner and videos are great and I might like to hear it I might be auditory and I could hear a podcast or I need to read something in an email or in all Organization text so sometimes as leaders we have to throw it up all on the wall and see what sticks Understanding that we have different learners just like you do in the classroom

Ross Romano: You know, how would you define I guess what an organization's objective should be around transparency and how to implement appropriate transparency, right? And and to execute on it in a way that's , I think [00:33:00] there's, I think sometimes there's such a thing as superficial transparency and then productive transparency.

And also, I mean, I think sometimes part of transparency could be proactively communicating about things that you. can't share more about, but you're letting people know, okay, look, this is happening. This is as much as we can say. There is some other stuff but it's the, to me it's the proactive nature of it, right?

It's the empathy for the audience and understanding, okay, here's what they'd be curious about and want to know and. And need to know and if there's things that they want to know that they can't know about right now, we still should communicate to that and all of that. But how do you go about that process of determining what transparency should look like?

David Shreiner: My commitment to our 950 employees is you're going to hear it from me first and I have to decide what it is and I think that's what your question is around, Ross, and there are things, there are certainly items that are [00:34:00] proprietary that we have to get decisions made before we can communicate and if we communi If we communicated everything, we would scare the hell out of people, right?

Because there's just so many things that are evolving, and they're organic, and you have to let them play out a little bit before you can talk about what direction you're going. But I really love the transparency word that you use. That's part of, that's one of the five principles in that category. And I think you just have to say, here's where the situation is, here's where we are, and we'll get back to you as soon as there's something that is impactful. I know that's a bit of an obtuse answer because without a specific situation, it's hard to say, I would do one, two, and three. But I think you also know as a leader when you put something out there that's superficial it, you can feel it. And sometimes it's checking a box. Did I communicate today?

Yes, I did. But did you communicate something that is of interest to your audience? And you need to know your audience to know what's important to them.

Ross Romano: Yeah. I mean, perhaps sometimes it's as simple as a bias toward communication, right? And then determining what, in this case, [00:35:00] let's wait on that. Let's hold back on that. But if our. predisposition is to say we should be communicating, we're less likely to miss out on those things that sometimes I think are just overlooked again, in so many instances, I think a malicious intent is the exception, but in most cases, it is just a failure to think it through and to put ourselves in the shoes of those around us and say you know what, this is something people would really want to hear about.

And if they heard about it, as you said , hear from you first, if they heard it through other means, it would put them ill at ease. because it would turn into something that feels like, something's being hidden from them, or , that it takes on a life of its own, and they're filling in the gaps, and before we know it, something that's pretty straightforward and innocuous becomes a problem.

David Shreiner: Something that I've [00:36:00] been guilty of is there's an item that perhaps I've been working on for two or three weeks, and to me, That's resolved and I'm moving past it, but to the audience, it's new to them, and so I can't move on until I've communicated what needs to be communicated and what is of interest to the people that you're talking to.

So I think you've got a great point.

Ross Romano: Yeah, and then going back also, I, part of this to me was going back to that piece about the listening piece, but also the multiple channels and all there's a quote that you start out this chapter with that people may have heard before from George Bernard Shaw. The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place.

Right. And there's a variety of ways why that could happen. Part of it is a failure to be really direct when you should be part of it is when you talk about various mediums , we use particular channels, but they weren't the ones that everybody was paying attention to. Part of it could be failing to initiate dialogue when possible to listen for the [00:37:00] response and thinking that.

Communication. Or that verbalizing something indicates awareness and understanding. Right? Yes I said this to you, but have I made sure that you know what I mean? You understand what the next steps are, etc. Because it's not just about me. If I'm the leader, I take accountability.

I can't just go back to my office and say, well, I sent that note out, so, okay, job done. I need to make sure that people received it, they get it, they know what they're doing with it, and so on.

David Shreiner: Yeah, so how do you do that? So, I mean, how many of us is not guilty of hitting that send button and we're like, all right, done. But now that next part that we talked about earlier like rounding. I sent a video out this morning that had to do with an annual employee incentive bonus. The next piece is to go out and get into the departments and say, Did you get a chance to see the video?

Do you have any questions? Is there anything that I can answer for you? That second piece is more work. But otherwise, how do you know if the video answered the [00:38:00] questions that people might have? So it's that continual feedback loop that I mentioned earlier.

Ross Romano: Excellent. So Supercharge Principle 3, Be Mission Focused and Present United Leadership. Talk to us about that.

David Shreiner: Yeah, this is one of the things that I really think there are similarities between the education piece space and the hospital space. We have a mission hospitals and schools both have missions of things that are important to them. We need to keep that mission up front and in front of people on a regular basis.

And we also have to know the audience. If you're a school administrator, We have to be intentional. Are we talking to students? Are we talking to teachers? Are we talking to parents? Are we talking to perhaps elected officials that fund our schools? The concepts are different in all of those, but they're all centered around the mission, if that makes sense.

So it all begins with this core in the middle of the ball. And then we may have a, we may have a slide deck with 20 slides in it and 16 of them might be the same, but those four are really important.

Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah. I think an ex explicit [00:39:00] connection to the mission, right? Revisiting, connecting new ideas, new initiatives back to the mission is a great practice. One to, but to have consistent buy-in and understanding of the purpose behind them, but also as an organization to ensure that we're. Doing the right things, right?

You know, if that mission and organizational values, et cetera, are just things we decide on at some time and then don't think about anymore we can do a lot of things that are unaligned and it's important, right? That, that all, like, schools, healthcare, et cetera, those organizations sometimes the failure there can be, I think, the assumption that because they are part of a field that has clearly an overall mission, that it's not essential to create a uniquely defined [00:40:00] and articulated mission and vision within each and every mission.

Building, right? Each and every school each, and it is, and each of them is going to be a little different, and everybody in there needs to understand what that is, and that also defines what is a good or right or wrong decision in that building. Because these things are, it's not just objective.

There's lots of good ideas that are not the right thing for us to do here. And the more that we're revisiting and connecting, okay, here's what we're thinking and here's what aligns to the mission, the more consistent that'll be.

David Shreiner: Yeah, when you think about that, if you think about your building that you use that example of, it has a brand and I think that's inspirational and motivational to people. That brand is exciting and when we connect with it and we're able to communicate with others about that brand and show examples and tell stories, I think we reinforce that branding, which is also very important and mission driven.

Ross Romano: Yeah. So, let's say I'm listening to this today and I've [00:41:00] been in that state Uncertainty, right? Let's say I'm the kind of person who has thought to myself, I would love to have better communication happening here. I'd love to create an environment around that, but I haven't really done it yet.

Where do I start , being mindful of the fact that I think when there's a sudden shift, even if it's a sudden shift toward the positive, it can be disorienting, right? So what does that process look like of really starting to actively integrate these ideas?

David Shreiner: Yeah, so do a personal inventory. If you look at these three headings and the five subheadings, so you have this group of 15 things, go through and grade yourself. And even if it's a pass fail, of these 15 items, I do 4 of them well, I do 8 of them well, I do 12 of them well, and then add 1. And stay on that 1 until you hardwire it and it becomes a part of your routine and it's something that you're very comfortable with.

And then go back and add [00:42:00] another one. And see how close you can get to that 15 because what the research shows that is statistically validated is the more of these 15 that a person practices, the better communication and engagement that result.

Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah, I would say, in my experience, um, there's two ways of quote unquote doing leadership, right? One is leading by position. You know, hierarchical leadership, right? You have to listen to me because you're Boss. And the other is leading by influence, right?

David Shreiner: out today, right?

Ross Romano: Right.

Ineffective, not the best. The other leading by influence. Leading by, I mean, completely independent of what roles are, but super effective when you can combine the two together. But I don't know of a better way to increase influence rather than through skillful communication, right? And and you can see it at every [00:43:00] level.

I'm sure everybody listening can think of somebody they've worked with who was really good at this. And you probably think of somebody who was very poor at this about being a communicator and the feeling it gave you and. You know, how that influence can get you to agree to buy into an idea that you may kind of disagree with, but you see the thought behind it, you agree with it.

the intentions and the you know, intelligence or whatever of the person presenting the idea. So even though you're like, I'm not sure about this, but I'm going to give it a shot. You can also see it, of course, in the broader culture of business and so on, leaders who are really well known for the way that they're able to communicate and the way that influences the organizations around them.

But , for those who are listening, who are saying, okay, this is something that I feel like I'm struggling with right now, I'm in this [00:44:00] role. And maybe you are that person that you referenced earlier, who was recently promoted into a role. And how do I get people to see me as? really competent and capable in my new role versus seeing me as who I used to be.

And well, now I have to give you a certain deference because you have a new title, but I'm still kind of , I'm not quite seeing you as filling those shoes yet, so to speak. Right. I mean, really focusing in on this. piece around communication can really change perception.

David Shreiner: We can, and there's several things I'd like to talk about there that I think are really important to us. And one is so , yesterday I was a peer and today I'm a leader. First of all, I'm the same person today that I was yesterday. And I hope that authenticity and transparency and kindness will come through in this position as well.

And I think also part of that transparency is saying, I have so much to learn. I'm beginning on this journey and I want to [00:45:00] learn from you. I want to look for the type of. Leadership communication that I feel is effective and try to incorporate that. And I also want to pay attention to the leadership communication that is not effective and avoid that as much as I can.

So I think that, especially for that new leader that authenticity is so important and it can be seen so easily by the people that you're working with. And it takes time. Leadership for all of us is a journey and there's no real destination. And I ask that, especially. for all of us. Have fun with that journey.

Embrace those things that you enjoy doing and do more of that.

Ross Romano: Yeah, there is a there's a way, certainly when you come into confidence in your position where you have a lot of confidence around hearing other ideas, right? And not needing to kind of block them out because we know that we can. iterate on them, refine them, consider them, determine what's in alignment, what's not, what can, what do we want to pursue, what are we not going to [00:46:00] do but not, Have ideas feel like threats, which is kind of part of probably the trajectory of experience in leadership.

And when we're first starting and trying to establish ourselves and then getting used to it, but it's all about communication and wanting to do the best. for the organization and going back to that mission focus and understanding that supersedes everything. So what are the things that we're doing to align to the organizational mission, to align to our constituency, right?

The people that we're serving, that it's not about me, you, what we want to do. It's about what best serves them. David, is there any final ideas, either something that I haven't asked you about, or something that you want to reiterate that you want to have our listeners really remember after this conversation?

David Shreiner: Well, I do. And it's around that idea that if you're not sure what to do, lead with kindness. Lead with [00:47:00] treating the people that you, the way that you would want to be treated. Try to understand more about what their perspective is. Focus more on being interested. as opposed to being interesting, and listen to what they're saying as opposed to thinking of what you're going to say next.

Leadership is hard work, Ross, and we all get better as we go along, and I think that the more that we can bring people with us, the more that we can listen to people that are closest to the work and have them inform our decisions, the closer we're going to get to being the best part of their day.

Ross Romano: Excellent. Well, listeners, you can find the book. the best part of their day on Amazon. You can also learn more at David's website, drdavidschreiner. com. We will put the links to both of those below to make them easy to find. You can also please do subscribe to the authority for more in depth author interviews like this one coming your way every week and visit bpodcast.

network to learn about all of our shows. David, thanks so much for being here.

David Shreiner: Thank you for having me, Ross. I enjoyed our time [00:48:00] together.