The Authority Podcast — Expert Insights and Fresh Ideas for Education Leaders

Ross Romano: [00:00:00] Welcome in, everybody. You are listening to the Authority Podcast on the BE Podcast Network. Thanks as always for being here with us. We really appreciate it. And in turn, we're going to bring you a great conversation here touching on A topic, mentoring and mentorship programs that can have a tremendous impact in schools and in individual careers.

So, let's get right into it. My guest today is Andy Lopata. Andy is a specialist speaker on professional relationships, mentoring, networking, and social media strategy. He has worked in the field of 25 years, working with global giants such as PayPal, GSK, AstraZeneca. HSBC, the BBC, and more, and [00:01:00] also leading universities.

He has written or co authored six books on networking and professional relationships, and the sixth one, which is newly out, which he co authored with Dr. Ruth Godion, is the Financial Times Guide to Mentoring. That's what we're talking about today. Andy, welcome to the show.

Andy Lopata: Ross, thank you for having me.

Ross Romano: Let's start. with the big question which is what is a mentor slash the mentorship relationship?

How do you define it? What should people have in mind when they think about that term?

Andy Lopata: When people think about that, typically they'll think about what Ruth and I, in the book, call the traditional hierarchical model of mentoring, which is the senior person sitting there sagely giving their wisdom and their advice to the more junior person at their feet. And certainly there is a strong, There's still a strong place for that in our culture there's a lot to learn from people who have taken the steps already that we want to follow in, but that's not the only form of mentoring.

So [00:02:00] in the book we talk about the different types of mentoring relationship in terms of traditional hierarchical reverse mentoring, where actually it's the more junior person mentoring more senior person, which is becoming more and more popular, particularly in a world where you've got five or six generations in the workplace for the same for the first time, where We've got different conversations going on about sustainability, about AI and other technology, about neurodiversity that we've never had before.

So, actually, the people with their ear to the ground on this, the people, with their finger on the pulse of the younger generation and leaders need to learn from them about how they perceive things. You have reverse mentoring, you have peer to peer mentoring I delivered a session yesterday and one of the follow up questions was, I've been asked to mentor one of my colleagues is that appropriate?

And the answer is absolutely. If you have some expertise that your colleague doesn't and you can [00:03:00] help them, then go for it and maybe they have something that they can share with you. So there are lots of different models like that. And then we talk about formal and informal mentoring, because the other thing we think about is a very formal relationship where someone is your mentor or your mentee and you meet on a regular basis.

Again, I'm a big fan of that. But there's also the role for what we'll call informal mentoring and having a mentoring team. So there are people that I will. Who wouldn't call themselves my mentor, and I might not call them my mentors either. But if I have a question, if I need the benefit of their experience, I'll pick up the phone and ask them.

So you can mix all of these things up to have a mentoring team around you, so that you have all of the advice, guidance and support that you need as you push forward with your career.

Ross Romano: Yeah. So you touched on this a bit but what what, Are the qualifications, right, for being a mentor and what are the ways, [00:04:00] let's take a more formal organizational approach out of it for now, because we'll get to that. But if it's just between two individuals, what are the ways in which that relationship can be initiated?

Right? Is it, Always the mentee looking for a mentor. Is it an offer? And I'm sure some folks, especially if they're thinking about it by qualified or I don't want to be presumptuous, but yeah what do you know, how would you describe the ways that that, that mentee mentor relationship can begin?

Andy Lopata: Well, I mean, your first part of the question was, what are the qualifications? And the answer is there are no formal qualifications to be a mentor. There are courses you can take, but they're few and far between. The Association of Business Mentors in the UK has what I believe is the world's first Masters level mentoring training.

or qualification, but there's very little like that out there in the US, the UK or elsewhere. Whereas with coaching as an obvious [00:05:00] parallel, there are any number of qualifications of any number of different quality as well. Because while there are qualifications, there isn't much regulation around either approach.

What qualifies you to be a mentor is that you have the experience, the insights, or the wisdom, or the expertise that the other person is looking for. And they trust you to guide you in that way and how that's initiated. It can, the best way is it is when it evolves when you start those conversations and you learn that person either needs your help or has the expertise that you're looking for and they start giving you guidance and they show a real interest in you and they hold you accountable for what you're going to do.

And it evolves into something where maybe one day you say, will you be my mentor? So I would say that's the best approach. You said to leave formal programs out of this answer. So I will do, because there are formal approaches to actually match mentors and mentees. But in that [00:06:00] informal way, where it's not through an organization, I think that evolution is often the best way.

Ross Romano: (ad here) In general you know, there's research that you indicate Demonstrates clear benefits to the mentee. What are some of those top benefits,

Andy Lopata: Well, in terms of the research, first one, the one statistic that just sticks in my mind above anything else is that 73 percent of people in an Olivet Nazarene survey said that they recognize the value of mentoring, but only 37 percent of those have a mentor. So we inherently know that we can benefit from the support of other people.

But we don't. Follow that up with taking action and making sure we get that support. And I would actually argue that of those 37%, you'll probably find that less than half are getting real value from their mentoring. So when we're talking about what value mentoring can give you, you then have to distinguish between [00:07:00] really.

entering into the mentoring process, thoughtfully, strategically, and making it work for you so that it is effective or just ticking the box and asking someone to be your mentor and never following up with them and not doing your homework. So if you do things the right way, if you engage proactively and positively with a mentoring relationship, the number one benefit it will give you is that you don't have to find the answers for yourself.

And that you get the benefit of someone else's support in overcoming challenges, getting to the next level, achieving your goals. Now I mentioned coaching before, and one of the key differences between mentoring and coaching for me is that mentors tell and coaches ask. So mentors have that expertise or experience that I talked about.

Coaches don't necessarily, but they ask the right questions, but it's actually a gray area because a good mentor. will eventually ensure that you have what they consider to be the right answer or the right [00:08:00] information to find the answer. They'll use coaching techniques to get there. So they will help you find the solution for yourself because then you own it more and you'll retain it.

So while I say that the mentor will give you the information you need, there's a process by which you will want to get there with your mentor, but you're talking to someone who's got that experience and insight. So that's the first thing. The second thing, and it's something that comes up a lot when you talk to people who really have felt they've benefited from a mentoring relationship, is that feeling you've got someone in your corner.

And that's the phrase that comes out all the time. It's that boxing analogy. And for my last book before this one, I interviewed a former world champion boxer about the role of the corner. you know, having those people behind you who can both help you prepare for the fight, but also just tweak your approach as you go through round by round and make sure that you can [00:09:00] see what you can't see.

Cause when you're in the middle of the ring and someone's throwing punches at you, you can't necessarily see everything that's happening. So having someone that can look at your blind spots for you, help you explore those blind spots and make sure that you're seeing the whole picture. and challenge you and push you and question your approach.

Help you question your approach is absolutely key. The third is to, I've talked about coaching, there are two other different approaches that come into mentoring as well, and those are role models and sponsors. So a good mentor will be a role model to you. particularly in that traditional hierarchical relationship that I was talking about, but not exclusively.

But are they living the actions that they're talking to you about, so that you can see how that pays off and what it looks like? And as a sponsor, are they advocating for you? Are they not only working with you to work out how to overcome certain challenges and hurdles and how to achieve a goal, but they are putting an [00:10:00] aim forward when it becomes appropriate.

Now, role model sponsor coach can be completely distinct from mentor, but a good mentor where applicable will encompass all of those as well.

Ross Romano: Yeah. I think that's a great breakdown and there's a variety of ways to follow up on that, but that is one of the big things that. You know, I've discussed a lot with folks about coach versus mentor versus sponsor, right? And okay, what are, how are they different? And there's these overlaps, and then there's clear areas where one thing is out of the scope of one role or out of the purview.

And I, and we'll link in the show notes as well, there is A quiz, a mentoring quiz that you can take either as a mentee or a mentor to kind of evaluate the strength of your mentoring relationships. I took it this morning from the perspective of the work I do with coaching, scored a 91%, so not to brag but it's clear right in there.

There are certain areas where [00:11:00] whichever type of relationship you're in, it's, 100 percent of what? Clarity of objectives, right? Like, what are the goals? What? Do I want to achieve as an individual? Like, why am I working with this person? And what are we trying to achieve via this relationship? And then there's other areas where there's some some divergence, right?

If you're, for example, working with a mentor who is a slightly more senior level person within your same company, right? There are certain, as you said aspects of sponsorship. That might be a part of that relationship that wouldn't necessarily be the case with an independent coach who's not working in your you know, company.

Alternatively, the coach may help you explore some areas of your life that are outside of the scope of what a mentor would do. But To me, right, there's for somebody who really is seeking and or gaining clarity on [00:12:00] what their goals are and where they're trying to go, there's a clear role for all of those types of support and it's an evolution and a process, right?

Do you have some thoughts? One of the things I was considering is Who is how does the, I guess, responsibility divided as far as. articulating and kind of having clarity around what the goals are or should be for the individual, right? So in this case, the mentee or the person being coached, whereas in coaching, it's very much, it needs to, be their goals, right?

Like, I can't tell you what your goals are, and whatever your goals are are good, and then we figure out how to work toward them. In a more formal mentoring relationship, I would imagine there's going to be a little more guidance from the mentor about what that looks like, and, but you tell me if I'm totally off track on that.

Andy Lopata: Well, the first thing to say is that it's [00:13:00] such an important point. The, where I feel the number one way, reason I feel that most mentoring relationships break down is that there's not enough clarity and ongoing focus on what you're trying to achieve from the relationship. You know, and that goes for most of the things that I talk about I, when I talk about professional relationships, I'll talk about professional relationship strategy why are you building these relationships and mentoring is a core part of that.

So that's absolutely key. I don't think it's that different to coaching. The difference would be that perhaps a mentor would have, would be better positioned to suggest potential objectives or goals than a generic coach who doesn't have experience in the field. But it should still come from the mentee stroke coaching because it's their life.

It's their career, it's their objectives. So the mentor's role is to say, what do you want to achieve from working with me? How do [00:14:00] you feel I can help you? And if that person says, well, I want to get to this position within five years, perhaps the mentor is going to say, have you considered this? And suggest a different objective, but it's a suggestion, not direction.

And that's the important part. It is one of the most important things for a mentor is to take their ego out of the equation. One of the phrases that we use a lot in the book that comes from Ruth is the mentor shouldn't look to create a mini me. And when you're in that traditional hierarchical model where someone is saying I want to be where you are, I wanted to follow the journey you've been on.

It can be very tempting for the mentor just to say, well, I did this. I did this. And therefore, if you do that and that, then you'll get where I am. But I actually, that mentee is not you. The environment in which they're working may not be the same you were in. Their goals and objectives in their life may be different to [00:15:00] yours.

So while there may be similarities in what they want to achieve, you can't assume it's a perfect match. And if you assume it's a perfect match, then you're going to start dictating and directing goals and objectives. If you accept that you're there because of what you've achieved, but you've got to tailor it to your mentee, you're then going to question, challenge, guide, but not direct.

You're going to suggest.

Ross Romano: Right. Yeah. I think you've indicated this a little bit when you referenced the reverse mentoring and how that's becoming more prevalent. And you know, one of the things I've heard people say is if you're seeking kind of advice or guidance, whether that's a mentor or calling it something different, look for somebody who's just a little bit ahead of where you are.

Right. Because one of the perpetual sources over the, this. The course of human civilization of of conflict is these generational divides where if it's a baby boomer who [00:16:00] now is in the C suite toward the end of their career, and Gen Z or a younger millennial and And the older person is going to say, well, you just have to do this, and this.

And if people would just do these things then everything would work out. And the younger generation is going to say, that's not the way things work nowadays, right? That advice isn't relevant. And it's not that either party is entering that conversation in bad faith, but it's just, Things change that much over the course of a few decades, and this, it's not that it's, quote unquote, bad advice objectively, right?

Because they could be smart things and fun ideas, but things that would totally not work for this other person who's operating in a different environment. That's not to mention that there are just individual differences even between people in the same cohort that could have totally different results but yet of course, finding the right mentor [00:17:00] and the right person can make all the difference, yet it seems that there's a lot of potential mentees, I mean, people who could benefit from mentorship who don't understand what the benefits are or why they would want to do that.

Why does that seem to be the case?

Andy Lopata: Well, can I take a step back first to that advice that you referenced and say, I wouldn't agree with it completely. I would say yes and not yes instead of. So rather than find a mentee closer to you in age or on their journey instead of someone who's, where there's a big generational gap, I would say find someone who's close to you on their journey who understands the current culture.

And find someone where there's a big generation gap. You want diversity of thought and you want to be challenged and don't just surround yourselves with people who get where you're at because then they understand you and it's more comfortable. Get people who challenge you. If someone [00:18:00] is at a very senior and very experienced and very successful in your field, don't write them off as a mentor because they don't know how young people think today.

You know, you can have that reverse mentoring relationship with them to a degree and help them understand, but actually challenge each other, debate it, discuss it, explore it, and you'll learn and you'll grow as a result. So I would never write anyone off for that reason, and that's why a mentoring team is so important.

Rather than just having one individual mentor and having those people around you that you can talk to. I would say that having someone in your network who is towards the end of their career is a huge opportunity to learn from someone who's been through so much. You know, I read a lot of history books I'm reading a biography of Winston Churchill at the moment, and there's so much we can learn from what happened in previous generations.

Okay, so the world is different now to in 1940. That doesn't mean there aren't things that we can learn from how people respond to hardship or [00:19:00] challenges. We just have to work through and put it in the context of today. And if you've got the right mentor, you can have that conversation with so it'd be yes, and not yes, instead, in that particular case, to your question of why people don't see the value of mentoring.

We, we value what we hear good things about, what we hear stories about. So it is chicken and the egg. Effectively, we need to create a culture in our communities, in our schools, in our organizations, where when people benefit from a good mentoring relationship, be it a formal one or an informal one, they talk about it, particularly more senior people.

One of the problems that I see happen a lot is that people seem to think that There's this curve where you get mentored, and then you mentor. And if I'm senior, I don't need to be mentored. If we can change [00:20:00] that and create a narrative where senior people say, I still benefit from learning.

I still benefit from other people and you can too, then that drives the message, the narrative the right way. Similarly, people seem to think mentoring comes in at certain points in your career. So if you are in a fast track program, you get mentored, but if you're just a plodder, you don't. If you are just on the verge of senior leadership roles, that's when you need a mentor, but if you're middle management, you don't.

We need people at all levels talking about the value of a mentor. of all kinds, traditional, hierarchical, reverse, peer, whatever it might be. So it's about creating the narrative where people share their mentoring successes, they share their mentoring journey. We talk about it and the more visible it is, then the more people will get it.

Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah. And probably a more fair or better way to say what I was thinking earlier is right. The right mentor depends [00:21:00] on what your objectives are at All right. Right. It's I want to, from here to the very next level, right, somebody who has just made that jump might have a better idea of how to get there if it's how to create goals and vision for the entirety of my career, talking to somebody who's navigated much more in it.

So it's very situationally dependent and then personally dependent on that people are better or worse at being mentors. And we'll talk a little bit about that. What are some of the challenges of the mentorship relationships? I'm thinking of this I host another podcast, maybe hopefully some of our listeners have checked it out, but a sideline sessions where I talk to coaches in sports.

And one of the things we talk about when with a high school coach, for example, is. how they can both be a An honest, trusted source of information [00:22:00] for a student athlete who is, who wants to pursue playing at the collegiate level, right? Maybe the student athlete says, I want to play in, at a Division I school, a big prestigious program.

And the coach, being an expert in the sport, might think, well, you're, a lower level program is going to be a better fit for you. And I want to be able to provide good guidance and be honest in that case, but also, like, my current role is that I need to build this. person up as part of my team and show them that I have confidence and belief in them.

So I need to be able to navigate both, not indicate by being honest that it means I don't believe in them and have confidence, but that it means I want to be helpful. Right. And that's just, I mean, so I could foresee, for example, and this, maybe these are things that get ironed out [00:23:00] before. the parties agree to actually enter into a mentorship relationship.

If the mentee has certain goals or objectives and the mentor thinks, I'm not so sure if that's realistic or that's just not how I can help. They may just agree that maybe that's not the best dynamic, but I could see how similar types of things could come up where it's, well, My role as a mentor in some ways is to maybe help you you know, with your confidence and see how you can achieve things.

But also I need to be honest based on my experience. And if I see that you have goals that are misaligned with my experience of you, I need to be honest. So anyway, I, but there's probably totally much more to that, but. Yeah, how much of those types of things should be discussed, agreed upon, clarified before we really enter into the mentoring relationship?

How many of them [00:24:00] might come up over the course of that mentorship?

Andy Lopata: I think the, that that conversation at the beginning is key to ensure that your mentor and your mentee, mentor and mentee are on the same page in terms of aspirations. So the mentor might say, well, that's a big jump. If you're willing to put the work in, I'm happy to work with you to get there. Or the mentor might say.

I'm not sure that's the right route for you. And if I don't believe that's the right route for you, I can't support you. Let's have that discussion. And then you either work out whether there is an alternative route where you can work together, whether the mentee can convince the mentor it's the right route.

or the mentor finds someone else who's a better fit. One of the things you can do as a mentor is if you're not the right person, and this could be as an overall mentor or for a particular challenge or particular piece of insight, you find someone who is from your, because you're likely to have a bigger network than your mentee, particularly in the traditional hierarchical [00:25:00] One of the quotes in the book is from the British Olympic Roa and multi Olympic medalist and world champion, Katherine Granger Dame Katherine Granger, who's chair of UK Sport in a Sunday Times, I think it was, interview in, in, I think it was 2017, she said, you don't want your coach to sugarcoat it for you.

And I think that's true of coaching and mentoring alike. You don't want a coach or a mentor who is just going to say what they think you want to hear. And one of the things for me that's most important in a mentoring relationship is that both parties leave their ego at the door when they go in. So for the mentor, it's not about showing off how wonderful they are and how knowledgeable they are and having to have the answer to everything.

And for the mentee, it's not about being patted on the back and told you're wonderful and just impressing them with what you've achieved since the last meeting, but you [00:26:00] can have real vulnerability, real honesty, and an honest conversation. I have a mentoring supervisor. I'm sure you have a coaching supervisor too.

So for those that haven't come across this, so I have a very experienced mentor who I have a quarterly checking with where we talk about my mentoring sessions and the challenges I'm facing and how I'm approaching it. Particular conversations that I might've had or done under strict confidentiality.

And she will. question my approach and challenge me. And she has an approach that I've now built into my own mentoring, which sadly I, I came across too late to include in the book. So you're getting a little bit of bonus content here as well, Ross. And so she asks me two questions before we begin.

And the two questions are, how hard can I push you today? How hard can I challenge you on a scale of one to ten, where one is pat me in cotton wool, I feel really sensitive, and ten is punch me in the [00:27:00] face, I want to learn. And then how supportive do you need me to be? during this call today. So how do you feel?

Do you need me to check in with you? See how you're getting on and so forth. So you can sense check where someone is at the beginning of a conversation. Now you need to get to know that mentee over a period of time to know that if they say 8 they mean 8 out of 10 means to them, not to you.

That's something that comes as the relationship develops, but if you do that, you then, as a mentor, learn how hard you can push. But that thing about ego, so I have a mentee. who is a born again Christian, and I can share this story because it's in the book, she's given me permission to share it there, so I'm comfortable doing so.

She's a born again Christian, Evangelical Christian, to the degree that I'm trying to think what the word I'm looking for is, but going out and conversing people and telling people is a key part of her journey. Now [00:28:00] that's not me and that's not why I'm mentoring her. I'm mentoring her because I believe in what she's trying to achieve outside of that in terms of anti bullying campaigns and and social issues like that.

She's a a student UK, we call it a sixth form student. So she's coming to the end of her traditional schooling before university. And we got to the point where I felt that her evangelizing, if that's the right word, was likely to detract from her ability to reach more people with her anti bullying and other social messages.

But for her, the evangelizing was So such a core part of her DNA that it was more important to her that she could include that in her message. So she wanted to include Bible quotes in a newsletter she was planning on delivering. I said well people pick that up they're not going to read any further if they see a Bible quote on the front of every page.[00:29:00]

We had a long hard conversation about it and It really did knock back my belief in what you're doing to a degree, although I believe in the overall picture, but ultimately I said, you do not have to answer me now. I want you to reflect and think, here's my belief about why I think you shouldn't go ahead with that.

But you come back and say what you've decided. She came back and said, I've really reflected on it and I've listened to you, but this is too important to me. And therefore I'm going to continue down this route, but I still mentor her. And I haven't tried to push on that any further now where she's gone across the line on a couple of things I feel I again raised that with her and my job is to get her to reflect and think differently But ultimately and this is where the ego be parking the ego comes in if she comes back and says I've listened to you I've considered it, but I'm doing my thing as long as I believe she's listened and considered And she [00:30:00] values my opinion.

I'm happy to carry on mentoring her because I part my ego and it's okay for her not to think my way is the way. Does that make sense in terms of what you were asking? And that's sort of a slight divergence from where we were, but I think it goes to the core of what you believe that they should be doing as a mentor is not necessarily what they need to be doing.

That's down to them. They just need to take it on board.

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Ross Romano: Yeah, and then she's clearly in that example, deeply engaging with the process, considering it, making a decision, and then importantly, following through with her decision, right? That's what it's so much about is saying, okay, if we're having these discussions and the mentee or the coaching client is saying, okay, now I have clarity.

Here's what I need to do to achieve my goals. Okay, great. And then the next time you talk, did you [00:31:00] do any of those things? No. And that keeps it's okay. Well, this isn't, we're not getting anywhere here. Right. Because As you said, right, the job is not just to make you feel good or to let you get some things off your chest and then go, there needs to be some action taken to show that this is, that we're going somewhere, that The conversation we're having is meaningful and eventually when we do reach some types of answers or when you ask, in this case, when you're asking your mentor for advice on something, it doesn't, right, it doesn't mean I have to always take that advice, but.

Did I consider it? And if I chose to go in a different direction, can I articulate my logic? Okay, you know what? I see the merit in this approach, but for me, this is what's most aligned with my values or what [00:32:00] I believe is most important. And so I'm making that call. And it makes a lot of sense. And that's kind of, that kind of gets to one of the points that I wanted to ask, which is what. What can, what a mentor should expect from a mentee. Right. And I love what you were just. What you were referencing with your mentoring supervisor and some of those questions about how hard can I push you and what level of support do you need? It relates there's similar questions that I ask, especially when I'm getting to know somebody in a coaching relationship, I'll talk about, well, but based on things you say, I'm going to ask some questions, sometimes hard questions that might.

You know, poke around a bit. Is that okay? Let me if something is going into an area you really don't want to go into, or it feels like it's a little too poke too hard, let me know. And we can kind of revert change course, but we need to have a dialogue there. And sometimes it's You know, I love the idea of having kind of that conversation to conversation [00:33:00] check in because sometimes there's you're trying to use your intuition about, okay, what this person needs is they need to be talking to somebody who just is going to be there for them and believes in them and they might not have anybody else.

you know, in their life who is going to say like, I believe what you can do. Let's work on it. This other person, what they need is some tough love. They need somebody to say, look, I don't think you're serious about, you say, this is your goal and there's no other option. You've rescheduled three straight calls and you this or whatever, and you're not really demonstrating that you actually are committed to that goal.

And that's what and that's what that person needs to hear. But but setting the context for those but yeah, as far as kind of what a mentor can expect from a mentee, like one thing I, conclusion I kind of reflected on recently when I was thinking about what's working, what's not in, in some of the coaching conversations is there, [00:34:00] there's a point at which you can no longer believe in somebody more than they believe in themselves, right?

It might begin that way if somebody's been struggling or they're having low confidence, but eventually they have to increase their level of belief in themself and be moving forward or else we're not. getting anywhere. When you notice, okay, every time we get to a certain point, this person's backsliding.

And then they're going back to not really committing to their next steps or whatever the case may be. You know, then the gave me, okay, now how do I kind of pay attention to that and think about that and see, okay, what are the warning signs when. That's happening and then how to handle it.

But you know, we've talked of course about what mentees should look for in a mentor but as far as the mentor, right? What should they in general be expecting from the mentee? You know, and noticing in that process,

Andy Lopata: Account sorry, not accountability, well, yes, [00:35:00] accountability, but the word I was going to say first was commitment and then accountability. But commitment is the word for me. As, as long as you're committed to this relationship, you're committed to moving forward. You're committed to finding solutions that Whether or not you agree with me, as we've just discussed, that you listen and you respect and you weigh up what we say, as long as you take action, whatever action it is, whether it's the action I've suggested or the action you've determined based on our conversation, but you actually bother and do it.

For a long time, I've been frustrated about silence between mentoring sessions because I've wanted updates. But actually that's one of the things I've worked with on my mentor supervisor, because that's about me and not about them. If that's not their communication method, as long as when they come on the call with me next time, they show that they've taken on board what we've talked about the previous time.

I have to let that go. Particularly a lot of the communities that I work with where they are time poor. And they're not that good at communicating in between [00:36:00] sessions. So it is commitment. And as I mentioned, the word accountability there, that would be my second word, that they are open to being held accountable.

They're open to challenge. It's not about turning up. And saying, look how great I am. As I mentioned earlier, it is about being open to challenge, being open to being questioned and being held accountable for what you say you're going to do and what you want to achieve. If people are committed to the process and willing to be open to challenge, held accountable, then any mentor would find them a delight to work with.

Ross Romano: what are benefits to mentors. Why should somebody choose to become a mentor? Yeah.

Andy Lopata: Above anything else, I've always said about my work, whether as a mentor, as a speaker, as a trainer, as an author, as a podcast host, whatever it is, whatever the channel is through which I'm delivering my work, there is nothing more rewarding to me than people succeeding because of what I've done. [00:37:00] Shared with them the fees I charge pay my mortgage and put food on the table.

But the feedback I receive is, it goes straight to my heart. And I think that most people are built the same way. That when we know that through our help or support someone has achieved something that they might not have done otherwise, or they've changed a behavior that's reaped a reward for them they've taken some advice and succeeded as a result of it.

That makes you feel good. And I think most people, I genuinely believe most people get more pleasure from giving them from receiving. So the number one benefit of mentoring is that ability to pay it forward to give and support. And it also, if you want to get a little bit more transactional around it, it makes it easier to ask for help if you give it first, because you know, you've earned it, not as a quid pro quo.

If again, if we look at the traditional hierarchical model, it doesn't just have to be this. It may well be that you can give to one person, but you need to [00:38:00] receive from someone else. And that's a very obvious way in which that comes about. But it's about the spirit of it, the mindset, that abundance mentality.

So it makes it easy to ask for something if you've given first of all. And then if you are within an organization, so if you're mentoring within a school, for example and you're a senior leader within that school, you are going to upskill your colleagues. You're going to increase the level of performance of the team as a whole.

You are going to create a culture where people enjoy working there, which then impacts recruitment and retention, which for so many organizations are the biggest challenges they face at the moment. So by investing in people and taking your personal role in doing that, you mean you, it means you surround yourself with people who are better able to do their job, which means your job becomes more pleasurable.

They're going to hang around. They're going to tell other people to come and work there as well.

Ross Romano: And so for, yeah, [00:39:00] for those organizations or companies, you haven't talked much about that, but I do want to touch on that while we have a little, a moment. More a formal mentorship program within an organization. What would the organization's goals generally be for doing that and kind of.

You know, at a high level what might that implementation look like?

Andy Lopata: Well, I think I've covered the goals in what I just said in terms of recruitment and retention would probably be number one for most organizations I hear from and talk to at the moment, and then upskilling existing staff so that you're identifying leaders of tomorrow you're bringing people up to another level performance levels improve, which all impacts the bottom line of an organization in whatever that looks like the outputs get better.

What that looks like at the moment, it doesn't look like anything. It's invisible in too many organizations. So many times over the years, I've given talks in organizations where I've covered mentoring. And I've [00:40:00] said, do you have a mentoring program? And I get met by a sea of blank faces and people say, well, I think we do.

And I think this person runs it or that person runs it. Sometimes it's HR. Sometimes it's an employee resource group, like a women's network, but no one ever seems to know. Very often the mentoring program is shunted on to someone in a voluntary role who doesn't have the time to do it. It's not thought about strategically.

Mentor matching processes where you say, who do we pair with whom for the relationship are a little bit ad hoc. And not very scientifically thought out. So it will be who's volunteered and who's looking and we'll match them together. Or at best, a speed mentoring event where you come and meet a bunch of mentors and say, I want that person.

We can be a little bit more thoughtful in how we structure these things. I do, I am having more conversations where I'm seeing that done better. Now, whether that's because, I moved from [00:41:00] talking about mentoring as a part of some of my workshops and then running a few workshops around mentoring to writing a book about it.

So the last couple of years there's been a lot more focus on this in my work and that's going to guide the conversations I have. Maybe it's because of that. Maybe it's because businesses are suddenly recognizing the importance of this. We're talking more about mental health. We're talking more about vulnerability.

Mentoring is a natural extension of that in terms of an organization's responsibility to its employees. So whether that's driving more focus on mentoring, I don't know. But I still know there is a massive gap. between what should be in place in terms of organizational structure and advocacy for mentoring and what's actually there.

The other thing that I would say is that when it's shunted onto one part of the organization, like a women's network or even just someone within HR as an add on to their job, but not [00:42:00] a core part of their job, then it's not taken seriously in the rest of the organization. And mentoring needs to be supported by the senior management in an organization, and it needs to be supported at a peer level.

That means that, we talked about this earlier, senior managers need to be talking about their own mentoring experience and encouraging people to seek a mentor. And if senior managers are asked to be mentors, they need to embrace it. And if they have mentors, they need to talk about it. At a peer level, if you are in a team and you're the only person in that team with a mentor, you don't want to be faced by resentment, particularly in busy periods, if you are leaving your work for a mentoring session for an hour, or if you are doing some follow up work from work with your mentor.

You don't want your boss second guessing you and not supporting you, you want them to support you in your career, as well as the benefits it gives you in your role. So [00:43:00] we need to ensure that organizationally, the structures and the communications in place to ensure that mentoring is advocated for and supported at all levels.

Ross Romano: is there some type of either training or at least guidance that an organization should be providing to people who will be mentors so that they're effective and should organizations like put parameters around what those mentorship relationships are designed to address or not.

Andy Lopata: Let me take that in reverse order. So should there be parameters about what should be discussed? No. But in any training for mentors, you can guide them in what they might want to consider. Well, I think it's really important to stress and there needs to be training in place to help mentors deal with this, the, you can't turn around and say you're being mentored on your role, or to become a senior manager, and nothing else, [00:44:00] because if there's a problem at home, That could be impacting how you perform at work. Now, what the mentor needs to be equipped to do is to know their limits and to know when to say, actually, I'm not sure I can help you with this, but then, as I said earlier, have you tried talking to A, B, or C so to guide them the right way, the mentor isn't there to answer every question. but to help them find the answer to every question.

But those parameters are dangerous because you start blocking out things that could be impacting performance or prospects. You know, a couple of other examples is imposter syndrome. Could be holding someone back. That might not come under many mentors experience or purview, but they need to get to recognize it.

Question it and then help someone find resources. We've got a section on imposter syndrome, impacting mentors and mentees in the book. We've got a conversation in there about neurodivergence as well. So if you're mentoring someone who is neurodivergent, then you [00:45:00] need to understand that conversation is going to be slightly different.

So when you start putting parameters in place about what you can and can't talk about, I think that's dangerous. And I think I've answered the first part of your question in answering the second is, yeah, and I think there's a lot mentees that maybe isn't enough training for mentors. Luckily, I know someone who can provide it.

Ross Romano: Yeah. , you're right. Yeah. I mean, I think that's, I would, I like that answer. It speaks to the fears that a lot of organizations have and why they don't commit to professional learning in, in a variety of ways, whether that's. the type of professional development they provide or mentoring or coaching because they fear that kind of like unrestricted driven by the goals and interests of that person receiving it.

Oh, well, if they then they'll leave us, they'll get too smart and leave. And one that's, inaccurate anyway, because if they feel like they're getting [00:46:00] opportunities that are to grow and evolve, they're going to be more likely to look for ways to apply that those skills and knowledge in your organization to if they get to a point where the best thing for them is to move on, that, that might be just the best thing.

And, but if, They feel like they had a good time there and learned a lot. They could always come back. Or but the person who feels as though they are not. growing and they do not have any clarity on any kind of a visible future with an organization. It will definitely leave, right? So,

Andy Lopata: tell everyone else, and tell everyone else about what a rotten organization it is to work for, it all goes back to what I was saying earlier about recruitment and retention.

Ross Romano: Right. Or organizations, right, that fear that it, that then they have to be accountable. Again, if you're not accountable, then you're going to have other problems. But, oh, well, if we have mentors and mentees, Discussing how [00:47:00] they can get promoted within the organization. And then we're not actually promoting anybody, right?

Those discussions that reminds me of when I worked at a company that, implemented a budget freeze and they, so there were no raises available. And at the end of the year, we still went through the performance review process. And you're sitting there, why are we doing this? What's the point of this?

There's no reward at the end of this conversation. So why are we even right? And so that again, like, okay, well, it's going to make you a better organization. If you're considering how do we improve in all of these areas? And if the reason why, well, we don't even want people to talk about how to get promoted because we're not going to promote anybody and like, they're going to, they're going to talk about it someplace and they're going to if they're if they're looking for more opportunity, they will leave.

[00:48:00] Otherwise you'll just be left with everybody who's. totally happy and content where they are. Anyhow, so

Andy Lopata: say on that, that I think I used the phrase earlier when we talked about what's in it for mentors, forgive me if I didn't, because I know I used it yesterday in a workshop, but I think I used the phrase abundance mentality.

Ross Romano: Yep.

Andy Lopata: and. Organizations need an abundance mentality as well. You can't make every decision related to what's in it for us.

You have to look at a bigger picture and sometimes you have to give something that doesn't have enough, have an obvious benefit to the bottom line because it's the right thing to do. And if you're, it's Stephen Covey in Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. And I talked about emotional bank accounts.

And I'm sure you're aware of that part of his book. He says that relationships are like a bank account. You don't just go [00:49:00] into a bank and say, give me money if you haven't deposited in the first place. And organizationally, clearly, there's that's an extension as well that your staff, your employees are your bank account.

You have to invest in them if you want them to continue now or in the future. And if you can't invest in them in terms of rewarding them with promotions, if you can't invest in them financially with pay increases, you can invest in their growth and delivery. And if that means that you're enabling them to find a better opportunity elsewhere, then you should be doing it.

Ross Romano: absolutely. So, Andy, you also host the podcast, the Connected Leadership Podcast and that may be of interest to a lot of our listeners here. What's the show about? Who are some of the people you talk to?

Andy Lopata: I hope it's of interest. Absolutely. Thanks for mentioning it. So, the Connected Leadership Podcast is based on the premise that professional relationships underpin executive success. So that's basically the premise that underpins my conversations. But it's a mixture of conversations. So I will have subject matter experts [00:50:00] who will come in and normally the topic will be related to professional relationships in some way, whether it is, as I said, I mentioned earlier, neurodiversity or imposter syndrome, or more, more closely.

I recorded one this week with Adam Dorsey, who, which was all about different ways we connect with people, which is obviously directly related. So sometimes it's a little bit more peripheral, sometimes it's directly to. But then I have other types of guests who just have a fascinating story and relationships, networks will come into that story somewhere, but we just explore the story.

So to give, I mean, I've been running for over three years to just give you some examples. I've had a symphonic conductor who studied under Leonard Bernstein a colleague of Ruth Goethe and my co authors who, who has written a really interesting book about the discovery of the polio vaccine. I've had Nobel laureates on there.

Two Nobel Prize winners for chemistry really amazing stories that they shared. One of whom would go into Soviet [00:51:00] Russia and hold secret meetings with dissidents you know, the height of the communist regime. We've had Olympians, we're going to do a Paralympic and Olympic series, I think, around the games in Paris this year.

with a number of American and British and other Olympians. So we've had a whole range of guests. We had the current British Home Secretary was Foreign Secretary before that, the equivalent of the US Secretary of State. So, so we've had senior political figures. We actually had an author of a book about why so many British prime ministers come from Oxford University and have been part of the Oxford Union.

So we've looked at that. So I. I've got quite diverse interests and it plays into the podcast, which I hope leads to some really interesting conversation.

Ross Romano: Excellent. We'll put the link in the show notes to the podcast as well. So anybody listening here who wants to check that out, we'll make it very easy for you. We will also put the link to the quiz I mentioned earlier, if you're interested in that, and to the book. [00:52:00] Really easy. Find the Financial Times Guide to Mentoring at mentoring guide.

com and that way you can link out to buy it anywhere you like to buy your books. Andy, anything else people should check out?

Andy Lopata: Well, I think you've given them a lot there, a lot of homework to do already. But if you go to, well, I would mention I have a blog on psychology today. Every month. So if you just search for me on psychologytoday. com, you'll find those blogs. Or if you go to my link tree, which is linktr.

ee forward slash Andy Lopata, then that has a host of different links to my books, my podcast, my psychology today blog, and some other interesting links as well.

Ross Romano: Excellent. We will put all of those links below. We'll make it very easy for you listeners. So check out all of that if it would serve you, if you'd like to become a mentor, get more mentoring, put a program into your organization a lot to learn here. [00:53:00] And then a lot more about leadership, networking, and various Frequently challenging things that have big benefits.

So check all of that out. Please also do subscribe to the authority if you haven't already for more author interviews coming your way weekly and visit bpodcast. network to learn about the rest of our shows. Andy, thanks again for being here.

Andy Lopata: Ross, it's absolutely my pleasure. Thank you for having me.